Help teaching new shooter?

[croc870]

A strong personal belief of mine is that we have to teach the new generation to shoot if we want to save our rights. Because of this, I always jump at every chance I get to introduce people to firearms, especially when it's a “non-traditional” shooter. Sadly, my generation never learned about firearms outside of the movies, so the knowledge base is incredibly low. I'm hoping some of the old hands here can give me some ideas on how to improve my instructional skills for this situation.

Today I was teaching a young female how to shoot. She's a U.S citizen, but since she was raised in Cameroon, English is a second language to her, and there are certainly some barriers there. I had an incredibly difficult time trying to get her to accurately line up the sights. After the usual safety lesson (four rules) and general explanation of mechanics of the firearm (glock 23), we progressed to shooting. I started by using diagrams to explain the sights, then had her practice with a blue gun of mine. I was using a weaver stance as opposed to a isosceles, but for the most part it just amounted to explaining proper grip and the push/pull system. She appeared to understand it all, so I moved to live fire.

I'm not trying to teach anything incredibly complicated or advanced here, just how to line up the sights and squeeze off an untimed shot at a moderate range. I started by having her dry fire. She had no inherent flinch, and was pretty stable for a first time shooter. I then fired a few rounds at twenty-one feet so she could see how it sounded and looked. I then had her line up the sights and simple remain indexed while I squeezed off a round.

This is where I ran into trouble. No matter what I tried to have her do, her rounds were not on target. I thought it might be cross-dominant, and had her use the right eye, the left eye, and both eyes, but none of it worked. I verified the problem was not with the weapon and used very close targets (3-7 feet), but she was still shooting consistently off. The problem did no appear to be in her grip as far as I can tell. I had her squeeze off the rounds herself (I didn't pull the trigger for her) and it just got worse from her flinch. I then had her squeeze the trigger while I held it aligned and it was accurate as ever.

To make a long story short, I never did solve the problem, We worked through about 100 rounds of .40, and while she became adept at loading, manipulating, clearing, etc of the weapon, I never got any accuracy. She did appear to have an awesome time(that never-ending grin that first time shooters get when they realize the gun won't bite them), but I'm not satisfied with my teaching. The only think I can think to do is find a laser sight so I can determine what she's doing with the sights, or perhaps use a firearm with a less canted grip (XD perhaps?). I don't want to take her back out there until I have some sort of plan, so I don't ingrain any more bad habits into her. What do the experts here think?

 

[FROGO207]

Find a .22 for starters and try that. There is a diagram somewhere on this site in a post (could not find it) that is basically a pie chart that shows what your problem is with relationship to hits on a target. This may help you understand also. Someone else will chime in with a link I would think. When I teach a new prospect I find that a lot of shooters will benefit from starting with a .22 and learning proper aim and such then move on to a higher powered firearm. it may be that the thing is simply too powerful for her to grip without slipping/twisting when firing.
Thank you for taking the time to help teach another about firearms.

 

[RebelRabbi]

Could you tell where her rounds were impacting? Was she high/low? Left/Right? Scattered randomly? I would check her dight alignment, her understanding that the front blade rests between the blades of the rear sight. If she was high, I bet she is elevating that front sight. If she is low she may not be finding the front sight or is anticipating the recoil and pushing forward. If she is all over the place she is either looking at the target instead of the sights or closing her eyes to shoot. Do some Ball & Dummy drills, load a magazine/cylinder with some live and some dummmy rounds, watch her hands to she if she moves the gun on the dummy rounds. Take the slide off and align the sights in front of her eyeball to eyeball, tell her the Iris of your eye should rest on top of her front sight and she should look at the top of the front sight / DON'T USE AN ASSEMBLED GUN FOR THIS!

 

[Sediment]

http://www.is-lan.com/challenge/images/Pistol-Correction.pdf

Download and print to your hearts content.

 

[croc870]

Howdy Frogo and Rebel.

Thanks for taking the time to look over at this. I've considered just renting a .22 at the range, but I had decided against. A number of people have recommended it however, so perhaps I should rethink this. My personal dislike of this has always been the dissimilarities between the experience of shooting a .22 and a larger caliber. I don't want to set someone up for failure, or give them the wrong idea about shooting. To me at least, the smaller guns don't give the same sense of "shooting" that a more practical caliber does. I also think that any adult can handle a full size semi without issue if taught correctly, and I don't want to be the guy talking down to the "little lady" or any of that attitude I've seen people use before (not that I think ya'll guys are doing that, just clarifying where I'm coming from).

I've successfully used the glock for about 8-10 other shooters, so of course I am biased in its favor. A couple of those have been the same scenario as this girl (uber-petite female around 100 pounds), so I know it's at least somewhat possible.

My major concern here however, and I may not have clarified this enough, has to do with the sight alignment. Even when I had her line the sights up, and stand perfectly still while I pulled a crisp break, the rounds were not going where she said she was aiming. I've never had this problem before, and I'm not really sure how to fix it. All the times I've done this before, having someone else pull the trigger while they held it was a "light bulb" moment, where they realized that if they did A, B, and C, the bullets really did go where they wanted them to go. I'm trying to find some way to duplicate that here.

I did use some snap caps Rebel, and that where I confirmed that when she was shooting by herself she did have a slight flinch. It wasn't a problem when she was dry-firing, but I did see it with the snap caps when she didn't know when to expect them.

She was hitting about 8 inches away from the target, level, but to the left when I was first pulling the trigger for her. Later however, it was just all over the place. This was even when she was slowing lining up the sights, getting a perfect picture, and I squeezing off a round.

She did appear to have a great time, and I know she learned safety and mechanics well, but I'm just frustrated about my teaching ability right now. Usually I can find someone who can teach how to fix a certain problem, but right now I'm still not sure what the problem is!

I think I need to start by trying the .22 because so many people have suggested that and see if it's some sort of subconscious reaction to recoil. I've never even asked what my range has for .22, so does anyone have a preferred make for that? I also want some other option as well however, so I'm wondering what else people can come up with that might work. Thanks guys, and keep the good advice coming!

 

[Curator]

It is great that you want to teach the next generation of shooters. However, it sounds like you may be approaching this in a way that is difficult for the student. A "new shooter" learning how to shoot handguns is like a new bicycle rider learning how to ride a unicycle. Why start with the most difficult first? All skills are best taught going from the simple to the complex. Start with a .22 rifle from the bench and gradually introduce handguns once she learns the basic fundamentals of shooting.

Better yet, consider going to one of the NRA Instructor training workshops and learn the correct way to teach beginners so they progress successfully from the beginning? As a certified NRA Instructor you would have access to the best training materials and support system. NRA Basic firearms courses are exactly what new shooters need to be successful right away and be able to build on the basic knowledge to improve on their own afterward.

 

[Driftertank]

The basic principles of shooting a .22 are exactly the same as shooting a major caliber gun - only without the sound and fury of a full size cartridge. It's amazing how many people try and start shooting a major caliber gun and never learn the essentials of good marksmanship.

If someone is too intimidated by the noise and recoil of a "real" gun, sight picure and trigger pull will fall by the wayside in favor of bracing for the kick. Especially if they are a small person.

.22s are the best way in, in my experience. Or even BB guns or Airsoft. The principals are all the same, and the less the recoil and noise, the easier it will be to learn the basics, then ramp up to the big boomers. Buy your friend a cheap Wal-mart airsoft pistol and a trap target set, and let her practice, in the comfort of her own home. Then try the .22's, then move up to REAL guns.

I taught my girlfriend (Who'd never even held a gun) to shoot with my 10/22, then moved up from there. Now she can shoot and hit with my SKS, M44, .38 snub, and she positively LOVES my 870 12ga.

Just my .02

 

[9mmepiphany]

two things i would suggest, when they are multiple possibilities, you need to eliminate the variables to isolate the problem(s). you have to revert to the basics of shooting despite personal bias.

just reading how her shooting was progressing, i would say at least part of the problem was grip pressure and shooter fatigue. i would highly recommend a .22lr conversion kit for your Glock...if you want to teach with that...or getting another .22lr pistol as an adjunct teaching tool. i would also recommend you instruct using the Isosceles stance/grip without the push/pull factor or the tension inherent in the Weaver.

i was recently working with a client who had extensive experience in Martial Arts and the build of a defensive back/linebacker. we used a .22lr upper on my Sig 226ST to teach and refine his technique. everything he learned with the RF upper translated to his improved shooting when we switched back to the CF upper. the point is to teach trigger control as the basis of accurate shooting, before you can even progress to gripping issues. it is like when you zero a scope on a rifle, you have to work in one vector before you you address the other.

 

[Manco]

Today I was teaching a young female how to shoot. She's a U.S citizen, but since she was raised in Cameroon, English is a second language to her, and there are certainly some barriers there. I had an incredibly difficult time trying to get her to accurately line up the sights.

I'm not sure what's going on from her perspective, but at least one person I've introduced to shooting had the hardest time grasping the concept of obtaining a sight picture. I'd explain it to her and draw her diagrams, and she'd claim that she had the sight picture, but every shot was quite off the mark in some random fashion (and this was with a .22). After ruling out other likely possibilities, I showed her how to acquire a sight picture by recording the process on video and showing her. Then she said "OH!" and was finally able to shoot straight thereafter. I guess she was just pretending to understand earlier and sighted along the barrel or something. Some people are reluctant to use their brains to, you know, figure things out and really understand them (which is outrageous from my point of view--I think about things that I don't even need to think about, and some that I probably shouldn't! ), but often a video demonstration can get through to them.

Then there are other people like my sister, for example. I just went over the basic safety rules and procedures, gave her a quick verbal description of how to get a sight picture, handed her my M&P40, and she started blasting away at the 10-ring with no further ado.

To make a long story short, I never did solve the problem, We worked through about 100 rounds of .40, and while she became adept at loading, manipulating, clearing, etc of the weapon, I never got any accuracy.

I agree with the others regarding the merits of starting out with .22 LR.

She did appear to have an awesome time(that never-ending grin that first time shooters get when they realize the gun won't bite them),

Yeah, to a beginner shooting a .40 handgun is like having a stick of dynamite explode in your hand and living to tell about it (and do it again! ). Unfortunately, it's also a good way to develop a flinch.

My personal dislike of this has always been the dissimilarities between the experience of shooting a .22 and a larger caliber. I don't want to set someone up for failure, or give them the wrong idea about shooting. To me at least, the smaller guns don't give the same sense of "shooting" that a more practical caliber does. I also think that any adult can handle a full size semi without issue if taught correctly, and I don't want to be the guy talking down to the "little lady" or any of that attitude I've seen people use before (not that I think ya'll guys are doing that, just clarifying where I'm coming from).

Understood, but .22s are good for teaching the basics and developing good habits with regard to trigger control and the like, as well as avoiding bad habits such as flinching. It makes the transition to larger calibers easier, and in problematic cases such as this one, can help narrow down the list of potential issues.

I've successfully used the glock for about 8-10 other shooters, so of course I am biased in its favor. A couple of those have been the same scenario as this girl (uber-petite female around 100 pounds), so I know it's at least somewhat possible.

Sure, it can work for many people, but starting out on a lightweight .40 handgun is not ideal for everybody.

I've never even asked what my range has for .22, so does anyone have a preferred make for that?

I really like the Smith & Wesson 617 revolver for this purpose. It's a bit large for a .22 LR pistol, but I haven't noticed any issues with that even with the smallest shooters, and it helps them get accustomed to the weight of a gun anyway.

I also want some other option as well however, so I'm wondering what else people can come up with that might work. Thanks guys, and keep the good advice coming!

You could try what I described above (video) in case she doesn't fully understand how to align the sights and target. If you have an AirSoft or BB pistol, then you can verify that she's doing the right thing before subjecting her to the .40 again (fun but overwhelming for some beginners).

 

[9mmepiphany]

I don't want to set someone up for failure, or give them the wrong idea about shooting. To me at least, the smaller guns don't give the same sense of "shooting" that a more practical caliber does. I also think that any adult can handle a full size semi without issue if taught correctly, and I don't want to be the guy talking down to the "little lady" or any of that attitude I've seen people use before

i would say that starting a new shooter with a lightweight .40 would go more toward setting them up for failure...especially with a compact pistol...than easing them into shooting with a .22lr. they have to deal with new skills(grip, trigger press, sighting) while at the same time the roar of the .40 and the additional snap of the lightweight frame and the early peak of the .40 pressure curve. i would personally not start anyone of a polymer framed handgun and only reluctantly so with an alloy framed gun.

it isn't about talking down to students, it's about ensuring that they understand what you are trying to impart...that's done by asking questions rather than asking for performance. i usually don't demonstrate how i want them to shoot before i ask them to shoot...it throws off understanding how they perceived what you taught them

 

[M2 Carbine]

I have very good luck with new female shooters.

As I tell them, "In three or four days you will be shooting better than probably 40 precent of the men that have been shooting for several years" and it's true.

To make a long story short, I never did solve the problem, We worked through about 100 rounds of .40,

IMO this is terrible. It's like putting a new driver in a 5 ton truck.

A new shooter should be started off with a 22, even if they only shoot it a couple hundred rounds before going to a larger gun.

I don't want to set someone up for failure, or give them the wrong idea about shooting. To me at least, the smaller guns don't give the same sense of "shooting" that a more practical caliber does. I also think that any adult can handle a full size semi without issue if taught correctly, and I don't want to be the guy talking down to the "little lady" or any of that attitude I've seen people use before

After shooting the 22 then the 38 2-3 inch S&W J Frame on the first day, on her SECOND day shootinng I handed this young lady my 45 Kimber and a few magazines to get use to the gun. Then, just for fun, I ran her through the Texas concealed carry qualification course. She scored a 245/250.

and I don't want to be the guy talking down to the "little lady" or any of that attitude I've seen people use before

I don't talk down to anyone but I do get results by "pushing" them (in a fun way) to do better.
I told these two girls, "You are making this shooting look entirely too easy. Now you must shoot with your left hands".
And they did.


Before long they are shooting a foot square target at 52 yards.

 

[dbb1776]

Lining up the sights is a foreign concept to some people. I have noticed this in younger children and some adults who have never done anything mechanical.
Try to teach her to point, with her finger, a stick, whatever, at the target. She may not grasp the concept.
In my experience women are easier to teach than men if we can communicate with them.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Lining up the sights is a foreign concept to some people. I have noticed this in younger children and some adults who have never done anything mechanical.

Most certainly true.

Time permitting, before a new shooter fires the first shot I go over sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control in great detail. The new shooter must understand the concept so well they can teach it back to me.
And it pays off in immediate good results.

 

[Nushif]

A bit of a problem here:

It's entirely on topic, I swear.

Today I'll be taking a few friends of mine shooting, all of 'em GIs, so I'm not terribly worried, but I will be taking one new shooter.
She's by no means a ninny (she goes to our workouts and can perform quite well along all of us) so I'm not too worried about not being able to pull a trigger, but she's never shot anything before.

Now, I'm not too worried about showing her *how* to shoot, but rather I'm worried about my gun selection that's available.

All I own is an LCR, a Terrier (with only five rounds) and a Mossberg 500.

So as to work her up to the LCR, which will have to do as the main working handgun I planned on letting her shoot my last 5 .38 S&W rounds and then goin on to the lightest load .38 spl I can find. Then I'll let her shoot the Mossberg if she still wants.
She's not some petite shrinking wallflower, but do you think it might prove to be too much for a first session?

 

[M2 Carbine]

She's not some petite shrinking wallflower, but do you think it might prove to be too much for a first session?

IMO not really, but the Mossberg might be much the first time out. Shoot it a couple times and let her see what it is. Then let her make up her oun mind.
I don't see any good in letting a brand new shooter shoot a shotgun, unless they really want to try it.

I prefer to have a new shooter shoot a 22 first to let them get famular with everything, even if they only shoot a couple hundred rounds. Can't you borrow a 22 pistol?

If you start with the 38 let her dry fire it a little first. Explain the recoil, without over doing it and getting her afraid of it. Maybe have her watch you fire a couple shots.
If she knows what to expect she should do just fine.

The ladies/girls that shoot my 38 Specials love the guns and I only load full load 158 grain SWC bullets.

 

[Nushif]

Sounds good, I really did figure the Mossberg would be more of a funny experience. It's all I ever use it for. I don't take my shotgun shooting as seriously as I should, probably, but shotties, especially HomeDefense varieties to me are kinda like high power plinking guns.

 

[shockwave]

This desk is not happy with the gun outing as described. Sounds to me to me like there was way, way too much talking going on. People learn to do things by doing them. But some people, when in "teaching mode," think that there's something they could say to facilitate the learning process. Instead, favor the 3-step model of "teach, test, and get out of the way."

So as an alternative, what I'd do here is take some time with the safety rules, explain the basic operation of the firearm, then give the shooter a box of 50 and a target and have a seat and watch. No corrections, no helpful "tips," and for heaven's sake no patronizing moves like holding the gun or squeezing the trigger or aiming the gun.

Learning takes time and experience. You want the new shooter to have fun. Let the student experiment and try things on his or her own. Let them feel out any stance that they want, any hand grip, any aiming technique.

After 50 rounds, come over and ask how things are going. Answer any questions you are asked. That's probably enough for the first outing. After another 50 rounds, you might, maybe, mention a tip about grip and trigger pull. After another 50 rounds, maybe a suggestion on aiming with the sights. Under 1000 rounds fired, there will be no "bad habits" to worry about correcting. The new shooter just needs to get comfortable pointing, aiming and firing. Breath control, sight picture, trigger pull all come into play in due time and overwhelming the student with information and expectations early on are a good way to convince someone to pick another hobby.

Teach, test, and get out of the way.

 

[M2 Carbine]

She's not some petite shrinking wallflower, but do you think it might prove to be too much for a first session?

I was thinking about "too much".
As long as the girl is progressing and not getting tired and wants to keep shooting, keep moving her forward at her own speed.

The first time ever touching a gun, after shooting about 5 magazines in the Ruger 22/45 and about 40 rounds in the 3 inch S&W J Frame, this girl was accurately shooting silhouette targets while moving right, left and backpedaling. (the target was so good I gave it to her to take home)


As it got dark she finished off the day tearing up the targets with a pocket full of rounds through a Crimson Trace equipped 38 J Frame.
I was tired but she was ready to keep shooting.

 

[cavman]

.22 pistol

I too strongly believe in taking as many 'first time shooters' to the range.

I take the approach of teaching "how to make sure it is empty" over and over again. Drop the mag, and then rack the slide. Drop the mag and then rack the slide, and show them why it is so important to do so in that order. (otherwise, the reverse leaves a round in the chamber, potentially.)

Once that is thoroughly understood and practiced, I emphasize that under no circumstances will anyone ever be hurt if the barrel is always pointed downrange. Even if they touch off the trigger, if it is pointed down range, the bullet will only impact the earthen berm.

Then it is on to shooting one shot at a time for 5-10 shots at the target. This makes sure they can get all the little things done correctly without the worry of any additional rounds in the chamber after their shot.

After I and they are comfortable with the progress, we load up a 5 round mag and go from there.

The .22 is first and sometimes that is all that is used the first range session or two. On occasion I will bring out a 1911 if they are doing well to see if they like the .45.

I use a Bullseye B6 50 yard target at 50 feet. It is big enough that they can see all of their shots, and we can make any corrections that may be needed.

(As an aside, i taught myself to shoot at a short range with several stations going from 7 yards up to 15 yards in one or so yard increments increasing from left to right. I bought a package of the 1" black dots that show green when hit. I must have spent 3 months working with my .22 on those until I was spending all my time at the 15 yard mark. It paid off, and now 4 years later I am finally shooting Master scores consistently with my .22 in Bullseye.

(also as an aside I have found girls to be, in general, better new students than guys as well.)

 

[RebelRabbi]

I'm guessing she does not have a dominant eye. She is looking at the sight with both eyes, focusing on the front sight just like you are telling her BUT she isn't aligned with the target. It could be uneven grip pressure but it would be the worst I've ever heard of. Try an eye patch for a few rounds.

 

[akodo]

I think if you are really trying to help a new shooter learn then the proper tool is a 22LR firearm of some sort.

If you do go with a handgun, put on an el-cheapo laser and for a rifle an el-cheapo red dot is good too

 

[Kor]

Here's a tip I learned from Tactical Response's DVD, Shooting Missology:

- If you have a "blue gun" that has sights, tell your student to aim the gun directly at your dominant eye. If she is aiming correctly, you should be able to see a "reverse sight picture" from your end of the dummy gun. Alternatively, buy an "inspection mirror" from an automotive store - this is a small mirror on the end of a telescoping rod which mechanics use to look under cars and inside tight spaces - and extend it in front of her, and tell her to aim at your dominant eye in the mirror.

- When instructing, IGNORE THE TARGET until the student has paused in their shooting. Always watch the gun as the student is pulling the trigger - this will allow you to see if she is flinching, or if the trigger pull is difficult enough for her that it causes the muzzle to deviate off target. Especially if shooting indoors, have her wear earplugs AND earmuffs - muzzle blast can be intimidating to new shooters.

- The earlier tip about video-ing the sight picture is excellent, and can be accomplished readily at the range if you have a cell phone with a camera. You can also video her in the act of shooting and analyze the video on the spot for her shooting problems.

- Emphasize consistency in every step and stage of the shooting process, for every shot - same grip, same stance, same sight picture, same placement of the trigger finger on the trigger. If she's shifting the gun in her hand, or shifting her finger on the trigger, or progressively leaning further back shot after shot, that can and will shift her point of impact. Establish her dominant eye, and her natural point of aim - have her aim-in on the target, then close her eyes and relax her muscles completely. If she raises the pistol and her aim is off, tell her to shift her feet slightly to bring the gun back on target, and repeat until there is no change. When "muscling" the gun to keep it aimed-in, the slightest loss of focus or concentration can cause the gun to wander off-target back towards the NPOA, or where the body "wants" to aim the gun naturally.

 

[Sunray]

"...her flinch..." Exactly. Lose the Glock. Likely doesn't fit her hand and the muzzle blast and noise is too much. Forget CF altogether. Think .22 Ruger or an air gun.
"...I never got any accuracy..." You don't need that if she had fun and wants to keep shooting. Has nothing to do with your teaching ability. Accuracy isn't as important as a new shooter wanting to keep shooting. Shooting any pistol, well, requires upper body tone. Could be, and likely is, that she just doesn't have the strength to shoot well.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Make it fun.
If the new shooter isn't enjoying themselves they aren't going to do well and won't stay with it.

Like I said earlier I complemented those two girls on their shooting and at the same time "pushed" them by making then shoot left handed.
Of course the idea was to show them that, using proper technique, they could do it.
And they worked hard to show me that they could handle whatever I threw at them.


Later they told me, "We girls shoot so good because we are smarter then men".
I said, "I can't argue with the smarter part, but you two are shooting so good because you have a terrific instructor".

Even if "the terrific instructor" part wasn't true you can't let a couple young girls get the best of you.