Help w/the Trapdoor models?

[Wilderness]

Hello
I have always admired the .45-70 trapdoor, both from the standpoint of an interesting earlier design and the related history of this firearm. I have looked for the chance to purchase on; however, the H&R models are usually tooooo expensive and the original Spr.fields I have looked at seem to be way past their prime. I have recently found a "modified" version that appears to have had some extensive work. It will be available in an upcoming auction near me. I have included the caption that appears in the auction's flyer: U. S. Springfield mod. 1879/1884 SRC ser.# 108687. A “custom” .45-70 single shot “trapdoor” saddle ring carbine made up of parts. Receiver is in the range of the mod. 1879 but the gun has an 1884 dated breechblock. Adjustable carbine sight marked with a “C”. Trap door in the butt. 2 piece trigger guard. Saddle ring and bar intact. Excellent bright bore. Like new action. Metal was highly polished and professionally reblued and most of the blue remains. Excellent refinished stock with no inspector’s marks. (The above depiction was written by the auction house's appraiser and not the owner of the firearm.)
I was hoping for any input on this trapdoor. Should one look at this as a lot of window dressing and bottom line - this is STILL an old Springfield and should be looked at w/caution - especially when shooting is consider?
Any idea on a value of the above gun? Any input on the Springfield is appreciated.
In addition, can anyone give me an idea on today's going rate on any of the H&R Trapdoor models - the 100 Anniv. Model, the model 171 or the model 172 w/the silver plated cap & tang site or the 173 Officer Model or any other H&R trapdoor model.
Finally, any thoughts on the Trapdoor model(s) offered by Pedersoli & Sons – their quality of manufacturing, present values.
Thanks for your attention and any input that is offered.

Best Wishes -- Bill

 

[Onmilo]

There were oodles of Trapdoor carbines made up of 'condemned' parts by Francis Bannerman Company at the turn of the last century.
Not really worth more than $500.00 in todays market, there is very little collecter interest in them but they can make fairly decent shooters if they check out OK with a gunsmith inspection, you stick with blackpowder or equivelent loads, and you are up to a challenge.
The bore dimensions vary wildly in these rifles and it can take a bit of work to get one shooting accurately.

I own a Pedersoli Trapdoor Infantry rifle that I bought from Dixie Gun Works several years back.
I haven't shot it a whole bunch but it has proven itself to be a reliable shooter and it is far more accurate than the few originals I have had the opportunity to shoot.

One of these days I plan to convert this rifle to a Gemmer type buffalo hunting rifle.
I have a Green Mountain octagon barrel, a Hawkin half stock walnut blank, and some C. Sharps Arms fittings that I will eventually fit up to this rifle.
I intend to chamber the barrel for .45-90 cartridges.

 

[Wilderness]

Onmilo - Thanks for your reply. You mentioned the "trapdoors" turned out by the F. Bannerman Co. - do you think the one I mentioned in the auction could be a Bannerman product? Could one say, the older the trapdoor, the better chance for performance trouble? You mentioned sticking to black powder - is Pyrodex used in the reloading process? When you mentioned "equivalent" loads - were you talking about equivalent loads using modern powder? Would I be correct in saying, use a modern t.door such as an H&R model or a Pedersoli, I will have less trouble w/things like bore dimensions? When you mentioned the wild variety in bore dimensions, what did you have to do to get the rifle to shoot accurately?
Thanks for your help with my questions. Your assistance is appreciated.

Best Wishes -- Bill

 

[Onmilo]

It could very well be a Bannerman gun or one turned out by hobby gunsmiths all over the country.
Back at the turn of the last Century Trapdoor parts were everywhere, much like M1 Garand and M14 parts were in abundance until just a few years ago and AR15 parts are today.
Bannerman rifles are very rarely marked as such.

When I say that older Trapdoors can give you issues, what I mean is you don't know the condition of the springs, you don't know the headspace, you don't know if the firing pin is in one piece, or even there.
You don't know if the extractor is there or functioning correctly if it is,,,,starting to understand my meaning eh?

When I say "equivilent" loads what I mean is Blackpowder or any of the blackpowder substitutes.
I have some very good smokeless powder loads that are safe with most Trapdoor rifles but I am not going to offer them because I haven't inspected the rifle, liability and all that happy stuff.

To get a Trapdoor to shoot accurately, 1st, make sure the headspace is OK.
2nd slug the bore and find out exactly what dimension of bullet diameter you are going to need.
3rd cast your own bullets out of fairly soft lead.
Weights of 400 to 500 grains generally shoot best in these rifles but because you cannot get a full charge of blackpowder or a B.P. substitute in a modern case I would suggest staying with a 400 grain bullet.
Overpowder wads with a lubricating disc and a bullet with the grooves lubed and thumb pressed into the case seems to work best.
I use CCI large rifle Magnum primers for blackpowder rifle shooting, they seem to work best.


H&R Trapdoors had some issues such as weak block hinges and poor springs too.
The Pedersoli rifles are much better options for a shooting rifle.
The tolerences are tight and the springs and screws are of good quality.

Did I cover everything you were wanting to know??

 

[Wilderness]

Onmilo
Thanks for all your help. I appreciate the time and effort you took in addressing my questions.
Did I cover everything you were wanting to know?? Yes, you most certainly did!!!!

Best Wishes -- Bill