Help with Lee Classic Turret - .223

[Bear2000]

Hey all,

I just got my Lee Classic Turret and my excitement is wearing off quickly. For some reason, when I resize my .223 shells they become too small for the bullet (.224 Hornady) to sit in. Before they're resized the bullet fits in nicely. In addition to that, I've had two stuck shells that entailed disassembling the die. This involved hammer taps (okay thumps) to get the deprimer pin out and then a vice and griptites to remove the shell. The resizing pin did not want out.

Any advice to a newbie?

Thanks!

Bear

 

[Bear2000]

In other words, there's no flair. Is that right?

 

[RecoilRob]

Hey Bear! The rifle brass needs to have the mouth deburred or slightly chamferred to ease the bullets entrance. Boat-tails seat a lot easier than flat base because of the bevel doing the same thing as the chamfer. Hit each case and take the sharp edge off the inner surface and the bullets will slide right in. You need a couple to several thousandths of neck tension to hold the bullets properly so it sounds like the dies are doing the job properly.

Your resizing problem sounds like a lack of lubrication sticking the shell in the die. What are you using for lube? I've used Franklin Arsenal spray from Midway with good results, as well as RCBS lube on a pad, and Imperial Sizing Wax for the really tough sizing jobs. Never came close to sticking one with the Imperial but I HAVE stuck a case or two with the spray lubes. Got to get plenty on them and then give it time to evaporate the carrier before sizing them.

Don't be discouraged man! This reloading deal has a lot of 'learning curve' built in and you'll get going just fine once we get over these little bumps.

 

[Redhat]

I started out my first rifle rounds (.223) using the Lee lube. You also have to put a dab inside the case neck. Lee recommends using a q-tip for this application. I never had any stuck cases.

Good luck!

 

[Bear2000]

Thanks Recoil. I'll pick up a deburrer tomorrow and will try the lube inside the case neck. I may need to replace the depriming rod, which no longer can be extracted from the tightening bolt at the top of the dye.

Anyway, I won't give up. Lee's instructions just made it seem so easy. Install dies - "Now you're ready to load." Heh.

 

[rino451]

How and are you trimming the cases after resizing?

I'm lazy when it somes to lube so here's what I do. Dilute RCBS lube 4 or 5 parts 90% or better alcohol to 1 part lube in a spray bottle. Spray down your cases adn roll them around making sure to get all sides. Let the cases sit (I let them overnight usually) to allow the alchohol evaporate. That's all I do. I haven't had to worry about the case mouths at all. Resize, trim, debur, an chamfer, tumble and load.

One thing, periodically clean the expander of the Lee size die - I can accumulate a ton of junk over time. I went so far as lightly polishing mine.

 

[Bear2000]

You know, I did skip several of those steps. I went right from resize to bullet seating (skipping powder charge for now; just getting the dies in right). I just don't know why the bullets won't fit in after resizing (lubing in the case didn't help). I guess I need to deburr them.

Does deburring always come after resizing?

-Signed, clueless.

 

[strat81]

Pick up some Imperial Sizing Wax. It is not very messy, even though you use your fingers to apply it. It has the consistency of lip balm (Chap Stick) and wipes off your fingers with just a rag or paper towel. Just swirl the case between your index & middle fingers and thumb then size the case. I drag my index finger over every 2nd or 3rd case mouth to get a little lube there. Remove the case from the shellholder and put it in a bucket, jar, etc. Do 50, 100 or however many. Once you're done, you'll need to remove the lube. You can either use a tumbler, wipe them, or my choice: spray them with brake cleaner. A few quick blasts does it and they dry quickly.

Now that you've resized, you might need to trim the case. If so, trim to the proper length. Clean the primer pocket and remove the primer crimp if necessary. Flip the case over and chamfer and deburr the mouth.

Then prime, charge, seat, and crimp.

 

[Bear2000]

Thanks for your help, but I'm giving up...

...until I can find someone to come over and show me how to use the press and reload properly. I've never been very good with this kind of thing, and after a couple of hours on the phone with several tech support people, just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Yes, my lubing probably needs work, but I don't think that's the problem. The dies are just not resizing the cases properly. The powder charge die is supposed to add a slight flare so that the bullet can be placed and seated. It doesn't. In fact, the resizing is making the opening too small. Moreover, the powder charge die is crushing the cases. If I back it off any more, it the mechanism won't turn.

What a mess. Anybody live in Orange County, NC who wants to make $50 by giving me a tutorial? I'm not going to be able to do this on my own and maintain my sanity, that's for sure.

 

[Bula]

Hey Bear, have you checked out the 'how to' videos on the Lee website? I found them pretty useful with my initial setup.

 

[jfh]

finding a mentor / instructor is an excellent idea.

If you belong to a gun club, check in there. If you shoot at a range, ask around. The reloaders I know personally are always helpful, and as you can tell, online reloaders who post are more than willing to help.

Having said that--I am about three hours behind you. I'm an experienced pistol reloader, but I have never loaded rifle. I picked up the components for .223 yesterday, and I will be doing the sortout on your press's junior--the standard Lee Turret, updated to 4-die.

As I learn some stuff here, I'll post it and hopefully that will bring you up to speed, Bear2000.

For now--it is clear you have the powder-through die misadjusted. And, I just thought of something--is that the universal / Rifle charging die?

Jim H.

 

[Bear2000]

Jim,

I'll look forward to any and all information you might have. As far as I can tell, the two set-ups are very similar, at least in terms of the basic dies.

You're right - the powder-through die (which is the universal Rifle charging die) is misadjusted, but I've backed it up to the point that I'm not sure the case is lifting the powder dispenser arm high enough.

I'm going to the club tomorrow for my CCW course. I'm going to post a note on the bulletin board asking if anyone would be willing in giving me a lesson. I did suggest that the club hold a "Loading" workshop. I'd certainly pay to participate in one.

Bear

 

[RecoilRob]

Bear, the Lee Universal Charging die does NOT expand/flare the case mouth. NO bottle-neck rifle die sets flare the mouth. You MUST chamfer the mouth to allow the bullet to expand it as you press it in. It takes a fair amount of pressure to expand the case mouth when seating bullets. That tension is what holds them securely.

The charge die is only supposed to guide the powder into the case and shouldn't touch it let alone crush it. Adjustment is definately in order here. Don't try to get it to expand the mouth, only drop the powder into the case.

Question: Do you have a 2 die or 3 die set? If it is a 3 die, you have a Factory Crimp Die as the third one. Is it possible that you are thinking that is the powder drop die? Sorry, I don't mean to ask stupid questions but I'm trying to help here.

And, trying to set up a turret or progressive press the first time around CAN be frustrating for sure. If you remove the turret operating rod you can convert the press to a manually operated single stage and I'd recommend loading that way for a while until you get everything set up properly and comfortable with the process.

Another Question: What powder measure are you using? Is it the Lee Auto Disc?

If someone asked me how to start out reloading rifle rounds, I'd advise a single stage press, scale and powder measure. Batch processing the cases: Resize all, trim/deburr/chamfer all, prime all, charge one-seat bullet in that charged case...repeat. Trying to go to the turret is complicating things so early in the learning curve.

 

[jfh]

I have no qualms about displaying my ignorance.

RecoilBob: or others--

I've got all four dies in a 4-die turret, in the usual order: full-length Sizing / decap die, powder-through rifle die, Seater / crimper die, FCD die. IOW, I am assuming the 4-die paradigm holds for rifle--e.g., die 3 will seat / set LOA only, and the FCD will "crimp" / clean up the cartridge. Is that the correct "thinking" to proceed?

I'm checking the Lee Rifle Die help videos--which are under the Single Stage Press category. As you've recommended--and which I always do with a new cartridge setup--I've removed the index rod and am setting up each die individually. So far, it's all familiar--but I'm really just at the first two dies.

With new cases, when do I worry about trimming/LOA? Can you do a simple list for us, Starting with new cases / taking the case out of the tumbler?

TIA--

Jim H.

 

[RecoilRob]

jfh..

My last new case loading session involved Guatemalan 5.56 from Wideners. NICE stuff! Measured a couple hundred randomly picked from the 2K and the lenths were all within spec.

Proceeded to loading. NOTE: As I was loading boat-tails, I didn't bother to chamfer the case mouths. Have found that BT's work their way into the cases just fine even if the mouth is sharp edged or slightly dented (and this is probably more important to the ammo loaders than the down-range advantages the BT's have). If loading flat-base bullets, I'd recommend the deburring step for sure.

Oh, I tried a handfull in the chamber of my Bushy Varminter to make sure they were sized properly. New brass that is 'ready to load' SHOULD be sized properly. It is always prudent to check to make absolutely sure. The Guat checked out fine. And, some folks recommend sizing all cases before loading. Yes, some case mouths might be dented and slightly out of round out of the box. But, I don't think it is worth the effort to round them up with full length resizing....especially when using boat-tail bullets. They go in just fine. If flat-base are being used, I'd use a tapered punch or the like to expand the dented ones for seating...along with deburring/chamfering the mouths. Those flat bases need a little love into the cases..

Prime, charge and load after that. Pretty simple stuff.

Case length is only critical when you are roll crimping into the cannelure. Taper or FCD crimping will crimp regardless of the case length and, so long as the case isn't SO long that it encounters the leade in the chamber, the round will chamber and fire just fine. If they are too, too long, they might not release the bullet properly due to interference with the end of the chamber and cause high pressures. New cases should never be too long. After a couple of firings, they MIGHT lengthen and need trimming. The RCBS X-die has a shoulder to keep the case from getting too long. If you want to load and not worry about cases getting too long, the X-die might be a worthwhile investment.

Sorry for my 'simple list' turning into a novel. This loading dicipline isn't all that hard, but we must have some background knowledge working to keep the simple things safe.

 

[strat81]

You're right - the powder-through die (which is the universal Rifle charging die) is misadjusted, but I've backed it up to the point that I'm not sure the case is lifting the powder dispenser arm high enough.

I made this mistake with M43 charging with my lee powder die. The rifle charging die does not flair/expand the case. Only the pistol dies do. And, you only have to raise the ram high enough to activate the powder drop. I too crushed two cases using a "full power" handle stroke.

I'd help you bro, but I'm in the midwest. Good luck.

 

[George757]

Bear / jfh,
Loading a boat tail .223 is similar to loading a pistol round, in that the base of the bullet will sit in the case, prior to seating. A flat based bullet won't do that, and that's normal. You have to guide the nose of the bullet into the seating die as you raise the ram. The die will keep the bullet centered as the case rises into the die. It's a little more labor intensive than loading pistol ammo, but I load .223 'flat bases' on the Lee Classic Turret and they come out fine. Try keeping your fingers on the bullet until it enters the seating die.

 

[jfh]

al right, I'm on the right track.

Thanks, you three--

As I went through my die setup, I found I had no real issues, and I may have spotted Bear2000's problem: I wonder if he had left the PTED 'funnel' in place. I e-mailed him about that--but haven't heard back yet.

So, I've made some uncharged cartridges, and they 1) are all crimped at mid-cannelure or higher, per Lee, and the crimp loods good--and they all drop beautifully in to a max cart gauge. The LOA is 2.255+--which barely fits in my (Brownell's) magazines. But, they do fit, and they chamber just fine.

My local reloading store recommended H335, so I'm going to see how the Auto disk sets up with that--I have an older aftermarket adjustable charge bar that has far more capacity than the Lee bar, so I don't think I'll I have to use the Lee (double) disk setup.

My 55-gr. FMJ bullets (new from Midway in 1990; 2.8 cents each--VBG) have a beveled bottom, so I find I am not worrying about getting the seating started. Does the (full-length) sizing die provide a slight funnel as it clears the cartridge?

In my situation, I am (for now) just looking for some plinking cartridges; they're for, of all things, a Kel-Tec SU-16C. It won't be shot much; it's a car gun / backup kind of package.

strat81: As I play with the Lee Auto Powder Measure and that aftermarket charge bar, I expect that I will be able to adjust the PTED die 'height' so that the finish of the charging side will be on a full upstroke--can that be done?

And, as George757 has pointed out, at least I have no issues for now on starting bullets--i.e., at least on new cases.

Thanks a lot, guys--I'm off to the bench again.

Powder Measure setup: A Pro Autodisk measure--the original Pro (old style hopper and chassis) with that aftermarket adjustable charge bar was assembled and the hopper filled half-full with H335. The H335 recipe is from the Hodgdon site, and in fact is on the powder bottle: a max load of 25.3 grains. I dialed in the bar until I got 24 grains on my Lee scale, then I checked that against my Midway cheapo electronic. The digital reported 23.9 to 24.0 grains. Several drops revealed a general run of - 0.1 grains; one was -0.2. IMO, the Pro spring return system should work fine, but remember to fine-tune the hopper attachment screws' tightness to minimize any hanging up or leakage.

question: can someone explain well preferences for full-length or neck sizing? Full-length resizing intuitively appears unnecessary if one uses the same carts in the same rifle.

Jim H.

 

[RustyFN]

Bear2000, I don't know what type of bullet you are using but if you use a boat tail bullet it will start into the case much easier. I had problem with non BT bullets and don't use them any more. As far as the bullet fitting tight after you resize the case , thats what you want because you need the neck tension. As far as your decaping pin sticking it might be set to deep and also the nut isn't tight enough that holds the pin for the pin to pull out of the die like that.
JFH, H335 meters great in my pro auto disk. I use the Lee pacesetter set with the FCD. When you guys set up your powder measure with the rifle charging die it will set up different than for pistol. Screw the die in with the measure on and run a case into the die. Keep running the case in and out adjusting the die down until the disk drops over the die hole. If you start out wilh the die to low you will be crushing cases. Trust me on that one. Welcome to reloading rifle and have fun.
Rusty

 

[strat81]

The die will keep the bullet centered as the case rises into the die. It's a little more labor intensive than loading pistol ammo, but I load .223 'flat bases' on the Lee Classic Turret and they come out fine. Try keeping your fingers on the bullet until it enters the seating die.

A big +1 to this! When I load 9mm, I can just place a bullet on the case and raise the ram into the seating die. With .223 and M43, I have to guide the bullet into the seating die as I raise the ram. It does slow the process down a bit, bit it sure beats picking 55gr pills off the floor! Oh, and be careful not to pinch your fingers.

they 1) are all crimped at mid-cannelure or higher, per Lee, and the crimp loods good--and they all drop beautifully in to a max cart gauge. The LOA is 2.255+--which barely fits in my (Brownell's) magazines. But, they do fit, and they chamber just fine.

Good, that's the way to do it. OAL is not as important with plinking ammo as it is with benchrest/target/precision ammo. I try to seat my .223 and M43 bullets as deep into the cannelure as possible (for a shorter OAL), as long as I am not below the minimum length.

My local reloading store recommended H335,

Yup, it's one of the most popular powders for .223. It is the commercial equivalent of WC844, the military powder used in 5.56 ammo.

As I play with the Lee Auto Powder Measure and that aftermarket charge bar, I expect that I will be able to adjust the PTED die 'height' so that the finish of the charging side will be on a full upstroke--can that be done?

I don't know, try it. I adjusted mine as per Lee's instructions. The rifle charging die can crush your cases; it is different from the pistol die. I just raise the ram high enough for the powder to drop and that's it. The Turret press lever/arm can give you a tremendous amount of leverage. Enough that you can crush a case. Much like priming on the press and sizing, you have to be cognizant of how the handle feels. For example, if you're priming and feel a lot of resistance, stop. You might blow a primer. For sizing, if it's rough to push the case into the die, it'll probably be hard to pull it out. Lower the ram, add some more case lube, and try again. For charging, raise the ram enough to see, hear, and feel the powder drop activate, then lower the ram.

can someone explain well preferences for full-length or neck sizing? Full-length resizing intuitively appears unnecessary if one uses the same carts in the same rifle.

Neck sizing only sizes the neck, full length sizing sizing sizes the entire case and the neck. Neck-only sizing can only be done if you're firing specific brass in a specific bolt-action rifle. Once it has been fired in that rifle, that case is now fireformed to that rifle only. Semiautomatic chambers (especially military rifles) are a bit more generous and the cycling of the action means that the entire case must be full length resized for it to chamber reliably.

 

[Bear2000]

Getting there....

With a lot of help from Jim and Rob and others here, I may have just resized and seated a bullet (and not crushed the case with the powder charging die - I'm not charging yet, of course) more or less correctly. The resizer seems to be opening up just enough of a funnel on the mouths of the cases to allow the bullet to sit vertically, but really only just. But I have at least figured out how to adjust the bullet seating die properly, even if it's not quite perfect. As for the final factory crimping die, well, it certainly works, but it almost looks as if it crimps too tightly.

Anyway, here are a couple of images - not perfect, but maybe someone can see if the crimp is too tight. The cartridge is very close to the same size as the factory loads from which the empty cases came. I suspect that the difference may be because of the soft-point Hornady 55 gr bullets I'm using - we're talking less than a mm.

Thanks again for all of your help!

 

[Steel Talon]

Bear

FWIW..

Make sure you're using the correct dies?

Peace
ST~

 

[tkcomer]

If you're using flat based bullets, lee makes a flare die just for rifles. It's main use is for cast bullets, but it can be used for flat based bullets that don't seem to fit just right in a case. It flares the top of the brass just a little to make seating a bullet easier. Without the case neck collapsing if you get it wrong. I use it on my cast 30-30 loads, but when I get around to loading my 223 rounds with flat based bullets, I'm going to use it on those also. The factory crimp die will remove the slight flair the expander die puts in the case. That die makes bullet seating so much easier.

 

[Bear2000]

Yes, I'm positive I'm using the correct dies. I went too heavy on my crimp and may need to seat the bullet a bit lower, but overall, I'm very close. Wish I had more time to play with it today, but I've got too much other work to do.

 

[strat81]

I went too heavy on my crimp and may need to seat the bullet a bit lower, but overall, I'm very close.

To ease the crimp on a FCD rifle die, just back the die out of the turret slightly. If you watch how it works without a case, the shell holder presses against the bottom of the die which closes a collet around the mouth of the case. How deep the die is determines the pressure on that collet and therefore the crimp. As for seating lower, I'd just screw the die in a little bit more and fine-tune with the knob on top.

Good luck!