Help with S&W Victory M&P

[Waveski]

I found what I was looking for , an early Smith and Wesson M&P Victory model ,but I have a question or two...

First off , I was glad to find a 5" barrel as they are not so common as the 4.
I was surprised at the checkered grips ; I have since read that these were used on the early Victories - pre 1942.

I noted that there is no "V"prefix to the serial # ; also a characteristic of the early production , so I read.

The revolver was converted to .38 Special from .38 S&W , fairly common. The proofs on the right side of the barrel offer some info on the conversion ... "3.5 tons" --- pressure tested? There is a .38 special stamp on the left side of the frame , different font , no doubt stamped at the time of conversion , which took place when and where?

The ejector rod and knurled end look sort of blued (all else Parkerized), but again the star #matches the frame & barrel.

I am baffled by the ramp front sight. The serial number of the barrel matches the # on the frame butt , also matching the cylinder and ejector star. This would indicate to me that the piece was not re-barrelled , but the ramp sight was not introduced until sometime later - how do I come to have a ramp on a 5 screw M&P ?

The numbers on the crane and on the frame near the crane match , but are different from the barrel and butt , cylinder and star. The frame at the crane is the same piece of steel as the frame butt ; what do these crane numbers signify?

All in all I am fascinated by this Lend-Lease relic. If anyone can shed light on these questions and help me further understand the history of the well traveled revolver I will be extremely grateful.
'Ski

 

[Waveski]

Two more helpful images.

 

[Waveski]

And this one--- Info stamped on the butt.

 

[MikeJackmin]

I am far from an expert here, but I'll venture a guess that this was a US-issued .38 special revolver that later acquired a 38 S&W-maked barrel.

I've never seen a serial number on a barrel before; what numbers are you seeing here?

Edited to add: Oh, THAT serial number on the barrel. Yeah, never mind...

Did I mention I'm not an expert?

 

[Waveski]

Please refer to the 4th image of post #1 , cylinder cleared , #968808 is revealed. That # is consistent on the frame butt , cylinder and ejector star.

 

[Radagast]

968808 is the serial number and is located in all the correct locations for that period. The numbers on the crane and frame are assembly numbers, matching fitted parts that have been stripped for bluing. The front sight may have been modified when the gun was converted to .38 special.

 

[Radagast]

3.5 tons was the proof pressure for the .38 S&W cartridge in British service.

 

[rcmodel]

See this:


rc

 

[rcmodel]

And this:



PS: 5" barrel is the most common barrel length on .38 Special Victory Models, and .38/200 British K-200 models.

4" would be rare, and 2" even rarer!!

rc

 

[Radagast]

Here is a pic, shamelessly stolen from the S&W forum, of a BSR that has been converted to .38 special, with the barrel cut down. Note the replacement front sight.

 

[Radagast]

RC, if you keep posting scans of the Standard Catalog of S&W, people will realize I'm just a nerd with a reference book, not some evil S&W genius lurking in a secret mountain gun vault. Keep this up and we will be forced to duel. Halibuts at 3 paces is my choice of weapons.

 

[Jim Watson]

Agree with #6 on the two sets of numbers, the one on the butt is the legal serial number.
Agree that the sight was ramped when the cylinder was rechambered.
Since the British proof marks are for .38/200, I figure the alterations were made after the surplus gun arrived in the colonies. If it had been done there by, say, Cogswell & Harrison, it would be proofed as a Special.

Are the grips numbered to match? That is a very late gun for checkered grips on a military contract piece.

 

[Waveski]

4" would be rare, and 2" even rarer!!

RC - I know that my observation is anecdotal , but the vast majority of Victory revolvers I have seen on brokerage sites in the last month have been 4". Agreed that the 2' is rare , but could you share your info source regarding 5" vs 4" please?

It does seem that there a lots of 5" regular M&Ps floating around.

 

[Waveski]

Mr. Watson ,

The grips are are marked with handwritten numbers in pencil:
502505.

Are the grips usually numbered to the individual gun , and is pencil the norm?

 

[Old Fuff]

Are the grips usually numbered to the individual gun , and is pencil the norm?

Yes, to both questions.

.38-200 revolvers for the British and Commonwealth were supposed to have 5" barrels, while those made for the U.S. armed forces a 4" one was standard, along with a relatively few that had 2" lengths.

But in the case of the .38-200 it should be remembered that a war was on, starting in September, 1939. Given the circumstances they didn't quibble over barrel lengths. However if you get either revolver made with an unusual length, check the serial number stamped on the barrel's bottom/rear flat to be sure it's original to the gun.

This is especially so if you encounter a .38 Special with a 2" barrel.

 

[rcmodel]

but could you share your info source regarding 5" vs 4" please?

I was in error saying .38 Spl Victory Models had a 5" barrel yesterday.


I think the confusion is, you are googling Victory Model, and seeing 4" barrels.

The typical U.S. Victory model .38 Special had a 4" barrel, as that was standard issue.

But, you seem to have a K-200 Model, .38/200 British gun, not a Victory Model.
If you Google that, you will find they typically had a 5" barrel.

Rc

 

[Waveski]

You two guys are making a lot of sense. The K-200 designation is new to me , but it seems to fit. 5" , and originally chambered in >38 S&W.

Now , as to the .38 special conversion , The .38 S&W bullet was .003 - .004 larger in dia. than the .38 sp. Is the .38 S&W casing also slightly larger in dia. than the .38 special casing? The .38 sp. cartridges seem sloppy in the charge holes to me. Also , the .38 sp. casings which have been discharged in the old "Victory" revolver will not fit into any of my other .38 special cylinders. The casings are over-expanded.

I have concluded that the .38 special conversion is a flawed concept , and this old gun does not process the slightly smaller round properly. I need to acquire some .38 "shorts" , the round that my old gun was chambered for , and give it a proper range evaluation.

 

[Black Knight]

As I read you original post it seems to me your gun was one that was sent to England during WWII since it was originally in the 38 S&W caliber. It was probably converted to .38 Special when it was shipped back to the U.S.. I imagine that at some point the barrel was replaced with the newer ramp style front sight instead of the half moon style. That revolver sounds like it has an interesting history. If I were you I would try to contact S&W to try to find out more about its history. BTW if you decide to shoot it use only standard pressure loads in it. If you use .38 Special +P loads you could wear the gun to ruin or worse.

 

[Old Fuff]

Well rcmodel isn't exactly ignorant...

Most of the .38-200 revolvers now in the United States were imported during the early/middle 1950's when the UK declared them to be obsolete. Trouble was, the .38 S&W cartridge they were chambered to use wasn't particularly popular. At the time I seem to remember they were being retailed for about $15.00.

Anyway, someone got the not-so-bright idea of rechambering them to .38 Special. This would work, but not very well - and once done they're isn't any good way to undo the damage except to replace the cylinder (with matching extractor) with an unaltered .38 S&W chambered cylinder. These can be found occasionally, but it isn't as easy as it once was.

You can shoot it with non-Plus P ammunition using hollow based lead bullets. But don't expect exceptional accuracy, and presume the empty brass is done until proven otherwise.

Last but not least you can replace both the barrel and cylinder chambered for
.38 Special - but this is a somewhat expensive solution.

The gun by the way has an interesting history. Smith & Wesson were literally bankrupt in 1940, and were so desperate they accepted a proposal to make a 9mm carbine for the British, if the buyer prepaid them one million dollars (US) in advance. Unfortunately the carbine failed and the customer ask for their money back. This would have finished S&W once and for all, but at the last minute a deal was struck where they would accept .38 revolvers at a special price in place of the defunct carbines.

At this point S&W closed the plant to any other orders, and even told Uncle Sam to go pound sand until they caught up with the UK's contract.

That "junk gun" you got might be able to tell some interesting stories.

PS: The barrel wasn't changed, but the sight was altered. All it took was a file, and the alteration isn't uncommon.

 

[Waveski]

Mr. Knight ,
The barrel , cylinder , ejector star and frame all have matching serial numbers.

Mr. Duff - Isn't. "Junk gun" a bit harsh?

 

[OscarFoxtrot]

This brings back memories.

When I joined the West Australian Police in 1974, these guns were the service revolver for uniformed police. 5", .38 S&W, marked "Property of United States."

They were replaced in 1979 with model 10s, and I believe the old guns went back to the US.

 

[Old Fuff]

They did indeed. I can remember when they were being sold.

 

[joem1945]

I have one of the Victory S&W's in .38 S&W. It has plain wood grips and is parked. I have shot it years ago since I can reload that cartridge.

 

[Ron James]

Junk is rather a strong word, you have a very interesting S&W. However, because it has been converted here in the states for 38 Special and the front sight has been altered much of the collectors value has been lost. To a die-hard S&W collector it is now less than desirable.

 

[Slamfire]

It is my opinion that your revolver is a Lend Lease Revolver. I don't know when marking US made military goods "lent" to the UK stopped being marked "US Property", but it makes sense it would have stopped after 7 Dec 1941.

The British proof marks would have been added when the pistols were surplused from the British.

This is a Victory Revolver.