Help with S&W Victory M&P

[rcmodel]

The British proof marks would have been added when the pistols were surplused from the British.

I hate to disagree.
But the British proof tests & marks were done by the British before the guns were put in service in WWII when they were brand new.

I'm not up on British firearms proof law.
But I'm pretty sure they had to be proof tested by one of the crown proof houses before they could be issued.
Even in war time.

rc

 

[Old Fuff]

Junk is rather a strong word, you have a very interesting S&W.

My use of the word "junk" may have been in error. It was met to reflect on the unfortunate rechambering. That said, the body of the post should have shown that I didn't consider the piece to be worthless.

When these revolvers were received at they're first destination, which could have been England or a Commonwealth country (actually the first ones apparently were sent to South Africa) they were stamped with both proof and military ownership marks. Many were reproofed with commercial proofs and marked "not English made" when they were released for export to the United States. Similar procedures were followed in the Commonwealth countries. At a minimum you may find marks from: England, Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zeeland, and perhaps others.

The first .38-200 revolvers were not Victory models. They were commercial production, made to commercial standards, and paid for by the UK.

In 1941 the Lend Lease Act was passed, and thereafter the revolvers were purchased by Uncle Sam, marked as U.S. (or United States) Property, and inspected by U.S. Army inspectors. Then they were "leased" to the British for free. All this because up until December 8, 1941 we were supposed to be neutral.

 

[Jim Watson]

The first .38-200 revolvers were not Victory models. They were commercial production, made to commercial standards, and paid for by the UK.

The UK had paid for the S&W Light Rifle, which was well made in 1930s style, but a terrible flop technically and tactically. If the Brits had not been willing to take revolvers in lieu of "machine carbines", S&W might well have gone broke.

 

[Jim K]

Sorry on the proof marks, but the vast majority of the WWII revolvers were in fact submitted for proof when they were sold out of depot stores after WWII, most in the 1950's. The British did not apply either military or commercial proof to those guns in the 1939-1941 period; they wanted to get them into service quickly.

WWI and a few early WWII shipments were given military proof marks (crossed pennants), but the commonly seen commercial proofs on S&W's were applied after the war. Incidentally, the "England" stamping seen on British-made arms was not usually applied in England; it was applied in the U.S., in bond, under U.S. law requiring the country of origin (COO) to be marked on imported products. (The folks doing the marking were not gun experts, so some American-made guns were given the "ENGLAND" stamp, including a Savage-made Rifle No. 4 MkI that I once owned.)

One point that can be confusing to researchers. S&W went to the V prefix when production of the M&P exceeded 999,999, since their numbering machine only went to six digits. The next number was V1. But they did not call all M&P's with a V prefix serial number "Victory Models". That term was used only for M&P revolvers made for the U.S. in .38 Special; guns made for the British and allies were called the .38-200 Model.

The prefix "V" was stamped on all frames during manufacture, long before the serial number was applied; that is why the "V" is not directly in front of the number and may not be in line with it.

Jim

 

[Waveski]

So , to summarize :

My revolver is not a Victory model , I am better to refer to it as a Lend Lease revolver.

The 5" barrel is not at all rare ; rather it is the norm for the Lend Lease version of the M&P.

The Brits preferred the ".38 short" round , because it was interchangeable with the .38-200 round which was in use in the Webley revolvers of that era , so Smith provided that caliber using the same tooling as the M&P .38 special , which resulted in a cylinder which was long for the .38-200.

When these Lend Lease revolvers found their way back to the U.S. , enterprising gun dealers thought that they would be more marketable if they were "converted" to .38 special.

The "conversion" is/was an abomination , given the fact that the .38 S&W bullet and casing are .003" - .004" larger in diameter than the .38 special.

My checkered grips , while cool , are not original to the gun.

We will never know how the front sight came to be ramped , keeping in mind that the barrel and frame numbers match.

Bottom line : If I knew then what I know now I would not have made the purchase. I thought I was getting a nice old war era shooter in .38 special. In terms on research and and acquisition I harnessed the cart in front of the horse. At his point in my life I should know better.

So , as Walter Cronkite used to say in closing, "And that's the way it is."

Thanks to all who contributed to this aspect of my education , 'Ski

 

[Jim K]

At one time, I accepted the idea that revolvers made originally for .38 S&W and later chamber reamed for .38 Special were not "right", even dangerous. But then I fired some and found out a couple of things. The specs for .38 Special cases and .38 S&W cases almost overlap, and the .38 Special cases will swell no more than some will in chambers cut for that caliber. Further, there is some indication that S&W made all its barrels to a .357" groove, and British WWII ammunition uses bullets of that diameter.

In other words, if that wartime S&W M&P has been converted from .38 S&W to .38 Special, go ahead and shoot it, with standard loads, of course, not +P or +P+.

Jim

 

[Waveski]

.38 S&W range report

Today I had some fun. An old friend of mine was cleaning out his garage and gave me some old ammo. Included was a partial box of REALLY old .38 S&W! I was intrigued.

My experience with .38 special in this revolver was not good. The cartridges were rattling around in the charge holes , and the casing expansion was not good. Extraction was very difficult.

Today was interesting. The .38 S&W cartridges fit very nicely. The ammo was not in good condition. First round - CLICK. Second round - BOOM. The third was really interesting - click- followed by BOOM a half second later. About 1 out of 4 failed to fire. Another 1 out of 4 fired delayed. BOY is it hard to stay on target under those circumstances!

It was a great experience to discharge my Lend Lease revolver in the caliber for which it was chambered.(sort of , given the .38 special cylinder length.)
The report was a pleasing deep BOOM. The "semi smokeless" powder produced a cloud which I had never seen before after each round - those that discharged , that is.

The first image is of an abused .38 special casing. I will not be loading that caliber in this old revolver again.
If anyone can give an idea of the age of the old ammo , based on the images of the tattered box , it would be appreciated.

It was a good day at a secluded range.

 

[rcmodel]

Early 1900's.

And old enough it is undoubtedly corrosive primed.

Clean the gun ASAP, thoroughly with hot soap & water, or Windex, followed by drying and oiling.

rc

 

[Waveski]

Thank you.
I will attend now.

 

[bannockburn]

Waveski

Your .38 S&W ammo box looks somewhat like the one I posted on another thread. I kind of figured it was pretty old just from the $ .55 price written on the box. Some other Remington Kleanbore .32 S&W ammo that I have looks to be from the '20s or 30's.



I also had some loose rounds of .38 S&W with maybe a dozen of them looking like they had some sort of wadcutter bullet or that possibly they were blanks.

 

[Old Fuff]

The row in front are black powder blanks. At one time they were used to start athletic events where a puff of white smoke and BANG! would give an audio/visual signal to start.

It is regrettable that the box of "old cartridges" were shot up. They didn't work well, and as a collectable the unopened box would have likely been worth enough to buy 3 or 4 boxes of currant .38 S&W ammunition.

Moral: Before shooting post on The High Road for advise.

 

[bannockburn]

Old Fuff

That's what I thought; the cardboard wadding reminded me of some .30-06 blanks a friend of my dad use to have around. All that was written on the bag that they came in was "flat top .38". The rest of the .32 S&W ammo my friend gave me was in the original boxes and still in fairly decent shape after all these years.

 

[Waveski]

Old Fuff ,

"It is regrettable that the box of "old cartridges" were shot up. They didn't work well, and as a collectable the unopened box would have likely been worth enough to buy 3 or 4 boxes of currant .38 S&W ammunition. "

Your input is always welcome and valuable. In the case of the old .38 S&W ammo I shot up , the box was not unopened. It was about 1/3 empty , much of label missing , the cartridges were in poor condition , and the tattered box was held together with very old string. I deemed there to be no collectable value. I knew that I would have a good time at the range , and I did.

Thanks again , and keep up the good work , Waveski

 

[Old Fuff]

I'm glad you had a good time, but even in the shape it was in... If you ran across a cartridge collector at some middle to large gun show he'd probably been willing to swap you at least a partial box of more current .38 S&W rounds for what you had, and made a profit on single round sales.

The box may have been beat, but even empty ones that old are sometimes used in a display with a period revolver.

I wasn't trying to dig you, just give everyone who might be following the thread a head's-up so hopefully they might think twice should they find themselves in the same situation.

 

[Waveski]

Bottom line : I couldn't resist loading that old revolver with even older ammo.Maybe I could have gone to a gun show some day , but ...

Thanks again for your valuable input.

 

[Old Fuff]

It's a little late to bring this up, but it's something good too know.

Early to mid-20th century ammunition was sometimes loaded with corrosive primers, that left deposits that could cause rust inside the bore and chambers.

So if you do shoot some of this kind of rounds be sure to clean the bore and chambers as you would with black powder, using a solvent or hot water and drying before proceeding with usual procedures and anti-rust preservatives.

 

[Jim K]

Warning, a FWIW coming up!

Some folks wonder why, if early 20th century primers caused corrosion, why earlier cartridges and muzzle loaders didn't have the same problem. There are two reasons. One is that many of the old primers used mercury fulminate, which is not corrosive. The other is that the old guns used black powder.

But, while mercury fulminate does not cause rusting, it does destroy brass or copper cases, so when reloadable cases came out, the ammunition makers switched to potassium chlorate, which leaves the brass alone but ruins the gun if it is not immediately cleaned.

And the crud and build up resulting from firing black powder could be cleaned best by using hot water or a water based solvent. The same solvent, unbeknown to the shooter, also cleaned out the potassium chloride that rusted barrels.

So, the conjunction of reloadable cartridges and the advent of smokeless powder spelled doom for many barrels. Blame was placed on the new powder, on jacketed bullets, on high velocity, on the new barrel steel. On about anything but the primer. In the late 1920's a researcher for the U.S. Bureau of Mines discovered the real culprit, and the non-corrosive primer was developed, coming into common use in the mid-1930's. But early non-corrosive primers were not stable, so the U.S. chose to fight WWII with the old corrosive primer, except for carbine ammunition where corrosive primers would have ruined the gas system.

Jim

 

[Waveski]

Thank you Jim - that clears up a lot of mystery and misunderstanding for me.

That said , I finally have some ammunition with which to properly have a range session with my Lend-lease .38-200. A local reload guy had 100 rounds of wadcutters in nickel plated brass casings. This will be my first experience with wadcutters - I don't quite understand the concept ... I understand that they make nice round holes in paper , but they look so non-aerodynamic...? What should I expect , and what is the purpose of the blue lube?

 

[Old Fuff]

They literally cut a full-caliber round hole in a paper target, and do much the same on a human predator. In this role they are in my opinion a better choice that the more popular jacketed hollow points because safe .38 S&W loads don't offer the kind of velocity needed to expand them.

That said, the .38 S&W round can be safely uploaded to regular .38 Special levels if used exclusively in UK Enfield and Webley, or U.S. .38-200 revolvers.

In a quality revolver they sometimes shoot into under 2" groups @ 50 yards. Then iffy at longer distances.

 

[Jim K]

Another one ----

Old time shot shells used two disc-like separators, called "wads", one between the powder and the shot (the "over powder wad") and the other on top of the shot load (over shot wad). The paper shell was rolled or crimped over the latter to hold it, and the shot column, in place before firing.

Shotshell reloaders often found the cost of factory wads to be too great and cut their own wads out of cardboard or fiber material of an appropriate thickness. The tool used was called a "wadcutter" and left round, sharp edged holes in the material, sort of like a pastry chef using a cookie cutter.

Now in handgun target shooting, a bullet that cuts at all into the next higher scoring ring is scored at the higher number. But with round nose bullets, the exact edge of the bullet hole is hard to determine. So, handgun shooters adopted a squared end bullet that would cut clean holes in the target and make scoring easier. Since the holes left in the target looked like those left by a shotgun wadcutter, those bullets got the name "wadcutter".

While wadcutter bullets can serve well for defense, they are usually used in very low velocity loads (to reduce recoil and recovery time in target shooting), and are solid lead with little expansion capability.

Jim

 

[Mk VII]

The hollow base (if they are hollow-based, which they probably are) will expand to take the rifling, which is useful for oversized bores often found in British .38 Enfields, some Webleys, and older cheap topbreak revolvers of uncertain age and pedigree.

Also a trick worth trying with the old .38 DA Colts chambered for the Long Colt ctge.

 

[Waveski]

Range report

Well , here are the results of my range session. I am not too proud of the results. I stood at 10 yards ; the odd number of bullet holes are the result of switching between various targets. My technique is rusty ,(insufficient range time of late ...) , and I think I rushed it. I had difficulty adjusting to the small grips. The loads felt mild , which should have been in my favor.

OK - enough excuses.

I need to clear my head , breath thru my nose , and give it another go. I am sure that this revolver is better than these results.

For those who wish to analyze , both images should be rotated 90 degrees clockwise.

 

[Jim K]

If that is a standard size wine label (4" x 5" about), that is not too bad. That revolver, fired from a rest, should shoot under an inch at 10 yards, under 2" at 25 yards.

Jim

 

[Waveski]

I WISH it was a wine label , Jim.

I have to be honest - it is a wine BOX.

As I said , not too proud. I'm not blaming the revolver ; I have let my discipline slip.