Highway Patrol/State Patrol calibers, Looks like 40 S&W is #1

[Runningman]

Current trend in Highway Patrol/State Patrol calibers? Interesting the high percentage that use 40 S&W and 357 Sig.

9mm... New Jersey Highway Patrol, Arizona Highway Patrol .

357 Sig.... Texas Highway Patrol, Montana Highway Patrol, North Dakota Highway patrol, Virginia Highway Patrol, New Mexico Highway Patrol, North Carolina Highway Patrol, Tennessee Highway Patrol, Delaware Highway Patrol, Rhode Island Highway Patrol, Oklahoma Highway Patrol.

40 S&W... Louisiana Highway Patrol, California Highway Patrol, Michigan Highway Patrol, Oregon State Police, Indiana Highway Patrol, Maryland Highway Patrol, Wisconsin Highway Patrol, Mississippi Highway Patrol, Nebraska Highway Patrol, Nevada Highway Patrol, Utah Highway Patrol, Washington State Patrol, Colorado Highway Patrol, Illinois Highway Patrol, Alaska State Police, Ohio Highway Patrol, Alabama Highway Patrol, Vermont Highway Patrol, Idaho Highway Patrol, Kentucky Highway Patrol, Connecticut Highway Patrol.

45 GAP ..... Georgia State Highway Patrol, Florida Highway Patrol, New York Highway Patrol, Pennsylvania State Police, South Carolina Highway Patrol.

45 Auto.... West Virginia Highway Patrol, Maine Highway Patrol, Kansas Highway Patrol.

Feel free to correct me if I got something is wrong or left out some states.

 

[valorius]

I personally think .40S&W offers absolutely nothing over 9mm or .357 Sig. It is probably one of the greatest marketing successes of a modern product that fills no particular role that i can think of.

 

[Bovice]

I personally think .40S&W offers absolutely nothing over 9mm or .357 Sig. It is probably one of the greatest marketing successes of a modern product that fills no particular role that i can think of.

You just don't get it because you aren't profesh-nul enuf.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

Heavier larger bullet at nearly the same velocities while still having a decently small grip frame and large magazine capacity?

Nope, nothing to offer there

 

[valorius]

You forgot the part where .40 offers significantly more recoil, slower follow up shots, and less magazine capacity to get a slightly larger bullet. Oh, and the ammo is more expensive too- so less practice for the same $.

You just don't get it because you aren't profesh-nul enuf.

I guess not.

 

[Boris bush]

This needs repeating.

I personally think .40S&W offers absolutely nothing over 9mm or .357 Sig. It is probably one of the greatest marketing successes of a modern product that fills no particular role that i can think of.

I was shooting when it came out. The hype made me puke. The performance (not on paper) was laughable at best. What you get is a pistol that holds less than a 9mm for the same performance (not paper performance) with more recoil and blast. It never did put 45 power in a 9mm sized pistol. The heaviest 40s are slower than the lightest 45s and have 60% more pressure than the 45s. More pressure, less velocity, more blast, less weapon control.......

Like said earlier it was a marketing blitz. I know because I watched it all unfold. Made me puke back then and makes me puke now.

Something of interest to me was the 9mm and 45 combined only equal the 45GAP. Anyone that knows BB, knows I carry a G37. For me it is the answer the 40 never gave. Real 45ACP "power" from a 9mm sized gun. Kinda neat to see the old warhorses falling off so fast to a cartridge that has only been around 7 years now......

 

[W.E.G.]

Sonny Crockett would arm his peeps with the 10mm.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

You forgot the part where .40 offers significantly more recoil, slower follow up shots, and less magazine capacity to get a slightly larger bullet. Oh, and the ammo is more expensive too- so less practice for the same $.

Less recoil and slower followup shots? That's a very individual specific issue that is easily solved with practice. Ive shot 9's and I've shot .40's, and they feel about the same to me: snappy and quick recoiling compared to a .45 or .38spl, but easily controllable once you get a feel for it. Sure .40 ammo is more expensive than 9mm, but both are less than $15 a box at Walmart so I wouldn't say either is really expensive.

But your right, you do trade about 3 or 4 rounds per magazine for a bigger and heavier bullet, and whether or not that's a worthwhile trade depends entirely on the person carrying the gun.

 

[easyg]

I personally think .40S&W offers absolutely nothing over 9mm or .357 Sig. It is probably one of the greatest marketing successes of a modern product that fills no particular role that i can think of.

.40 vs 9mm:
Only the hottest 9mm+P loads can even hope to compete with the typical .40.
And if you're buying those hot 9mm+P loads, then you're most likely paying more than you would be for good common .40 self defense loads.
The .40 makes a slightly bigger hole, throws a heavier bullet, and delivers more tissue destroying energy to the target than the 9mm does.

.40 vs .357Sig:
Even though the .40 makes a slightly bigger hole, and throws a heavier bullet, the energy levels are very close, with a slight edge going to the .357Sig.

You forgot the part where .40 offers significantly more recoil, slower follow up shots, and less magazine capacity to get a slightly larger bullet. Oh, and the ammo is more expensive too- so less practice for the same $.

Actually, the recoil from the .40 really isn't any worse than the recoil from hot 9mm+P loads.
And the time difference between follow-up shots is insignificant.
And the costs of the hot 9mm+P ammo is no worse than the typical .40 ammo.
But you do get slightly more mag capacity with the 9mm,usually about 2 rounds.

 

[Setzer77]

Ohio HP carries .40s last I was aware. Used to be SIGs. Not a .40 guy myself. I can see the appeal, but 9 is fine for me (.45 is better, but I can't lug that thing around).

 

[Boris bush]

So many people talk about shooting a 9mm and then shooting a 40 at the same speed. I bought a 40 and I can tell you right now that shooting 40 from a P229 was waaaay slower on pins and plates when there was a timer involved. If I were just pluggin holes in paper I sure might think I was shooting just as accurate with the same splits....

No matter how tough you are, fast you are or accurate you are. If you shoot a 40 lightning fast then the less recoil and faster on target time with a 9mm WILL make you faster. No way around it..

 

[Setzer77]

Mak, some will argue that there have been innumerable complaints about the combat effectiveness of the 9mm and 5.56 cartridges in military use, just an FYI.

For ball ammo, I'd prefer not to have a 9mm. As a civilian, with the option to choose what ever nuclear-tipped super death ray hollowpoints I want, 9mm is sufficient.

Personally, I see the .40 as a fad. Is it effective? Doubtless. Is it significantly more effective than proper 9mm loads? Doubtful. My suspicion is that LE Agencies switched to .40 because that's the FBI switched to, therefore it must be all that. The FBI could issue S&W Centennials in .327 Fed mag for backup, and that would be the hot new caliber. I owned a .40 just to try the caliber, put a few hundred rounds through it. Recoil was only a touch snappier than 9mm, but I still like my 9mms.

 

[easyg]

It never did put 45 power in a 9mm sized pistol. The heaviest 40s are slower than the lightest 45s and have 60% more pressure than the 45s. More pressure, less velocity, more blast, less weapon control.......

Looking at Speers data, there's just not much difference in the velocity and energy of most .45 loads when compared to most .40 loads.
And if you shoot non +P .45 ammo, from a 4" barrel pistol, the .40 will actually out-perform the .45 in nearly every instance.

From Speer's data...
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx


155g .40 mv = 1200 fps/ me = 496
165g .40 mv = 1150 fps/ me = 484
180g .40 mv = 1025 fps/ me = 420
all from a 4" barrel.

185g .45 mv = 1050 fps/ me = 453
230g .45 mv = 890 fps/ me = 404
200g .45+P mv = 1080 fps/ me = 518
all from a 5" barrel.


Even using 200g .45 +P from a 5" barrel, against 180g .40 from a 4" barrel, there is only a difference of 98 ft. lbs. of energy.
And only a difference of 55 fps.
That's not really much to crow about.



And look at Speer's short barrel ammo...

180g .40 from a 3.5" barrel mv = 950 fps/ me = 361 ft. lbs.
230g .45 from a 4" barrel mv = 820 fps/ me = 343 ft. lbs.


Only when using +P ammo and a longer barrel does the .45 really surpass the .40S&W.

 

[valorius]

During WWII the Marines complained of the stopping power of the M1 Garand .30 M1 cartridge.

Soldiers like to complain.

Only the hottest 9mm+P loads can even hope to compete with the typical .40.

A silly statement.

The hottest 9mm loads compete well with .357 magnum, let alone .40 S&W. In Doubletap offerings, the company that offers both the hottest 9mm and .40 loads, the 9mm God Dot offerings easily match and in some cases exceed the expansion and penetration of the best .40, .357 Sig and .357 magnum loads. (i can post the stats if you want)

Really it takes a .45ACP to offer any real advantage over modern high power 9mm ammo. Modern .45 ammo makes a MUCH bigger hole than .40 while also packing significantly more throw weight, trying to compare .40 (or 9mm) to .45 in direct bullet to bullet performance is also pretty silly.

The .40 is a marketing ploy, and many have bought it.

 

[easyg]

No matter how tough you are, fast you are or accurate you are. If you shoot a 40 lightning fast then the less recoil and faster on target time with a 9mm WILL make you faster. No way around it..

True, "but how much faster", that is the question.

If I can hit the target three times in 2 seconds shooting .40, and three times in 1.8 seconds shooting the 9mm, is it really smart for me to choose the less effective round to save 0.02 seconds for three taps on target?

In my opinion, the answer is "no".

 

[easyg]

The hottest 9mm loads compete well with .357 magnum, let alone .40 S&W. In Doubletap offerings, the company that offers both the hottest 9mm and .40 loads, the 9mm God Dot offerings easily match the expansion and penetration of the best .40, .357 Sig and .357 magnum loads. (i can post the stats if you want)

Yeah, post those stats.

 

[valorius]

No problem.

The double tap gel tests (originally posted on THR) are as follows:

I find the results to be quite impressive. Most loads feature the bonded core gold dot JHP.

corey006
April 13, 2007, 10:01 AM

Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!

All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap 9mm+P Penetration / expansion

115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W

135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"

DoubleTap .357 Sig

115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum

125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap .45ACP

185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

Ballistic gelatin test results : 10mm Auto [Archive] - THR

What this chart screams out to me is that until you hit .45ACP there is virtually no significant, or "real world" difference in performance in any of the cartridges listed, though the 147gr .357 Sig loading has very nice numbers.

The 230gr .45acp load is clearly superior, shot for shot, than any of the other popular loadings DT offers.

Note that several 9mm loads exceed the performance of the DT 125gr .357 mag at 1600fps, in both penetration and/or expansion.

Also note that while the difference is pretty small, .357 Sig does offer a small advantage over both 9mm and .40S&W. But IMO the difference is not worth the extra recoil and loss of capacity vs a 9mm, and that's even more true for the .40S&W.

All that extra recoil, slower follow up shots, reduced capacity, and increased ammo cost to get a measly .75" more penetration and ZERO more bullet diameter than the best 9mm load? (or i can get equal penetration with 147gr 9mm and give up only .04" expansion to the .40)

No thanks.

 

[Boris bush]

That's not really much to crow about.

Kona is a little more expensive than regular brew, and I almost wasted some when I chuckled while sipping and reading.....

Keeping it apples to apples as best we can here. 180 40s going slower than 185 45s with less energy and 60% more pressure is better? Lets take another looksee here. Now we will look at a 165 grain load in 45 and a 165 grain load in 40. Both are made by the same company. The 165 grain 45 moves out at 1250fps. The 60% higher pressure 40 caliber round is now 100fps slower, not just 25fps slower in the near 180/185 comparison......

Yep, the 40 looks so darn good now. I know I want less performance with more pressure. Its what I always wanted.......

 

[easyg]

Originally Posted by EasyG
Only the hottest 9mm+P loads can even hope to compete with the typical .40.

A silly statement.

Actually, the data you just posted only supports my statement....

It takes hot Double-Tap 9mm +P ammo to compete with the .40.

Post some standard pressure non +P 9mm ammo stats that compete with the .40S&W.

Modern .45 ammo makes a MUCH bigger hole than .40 while also packing significantly more throw weight, trying to compare .40 (or 9mm) to .45 in direct bullet to bullet performance is also pretty silly.

Actually, the .45 only makes a slightly larger hole than the .40S&W: 0.05" to be exact, just as the .40 makes a slightly bigger hole than the 9mm (approx. 0.05" bigger).
And the weight is comparable depending upon the load chosen:
185g .45 vs 180g .40 for example.


Easy

 

[valorius]

Those are +P stats for all calibers, including the .40, what are you talking about?

Even with FLAT OUT loads in both calibers, the 9mm equals .40 performance.

DoubleTap 9mm+P Penetration / expansion

115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W

135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"

Period.

 

[easyg]

Keeping it apples to apples as best we can here. 180 40s going slower than 185 45s with less energy and 60% more pressure is better?

Okay, you want an apples to apples comparison...
The 185g .45 is only going faster than the 180g .40 by a mere 25 fps.
But remember...they are being shot from different barrel lengths (5" for the .45 and 4" for the .40).
Shoot them both from a 4" barrel and the .45 loses it's edge in speed.

Lets take another looksee here. Now we will look at a 165 grain load in 45 and a 165 grain load in 40. Both are made by the same company. The 165 grain 45 moves out at 1250fps. The 60% higher pressure 40 caliber round is now 100fps slower, not just 25fps slower in the near 180/185 comparison......

And the barrel lengths used were what?
And was the .45 +P ammo?

Please post a link to this data also.

 

[easyg]

Those are +P stats for all calibers, including the .40, what are you talking about?

What are you talking about?

There is no such thing as a +P .40S&W load.

Don't you realize that you are comparing 9mm +P loads to standard .40 loads?


Think about it this way....

Every 9mm para handgun can shoot 9mm para caliber ammo.
But not every 9mm para handgun can shoot 9mm para +P ammo.
This is because 9mm +P ammo is higher than standard pressure 9mm ammo.

There are no .40 handguns that I'm aware of that cannot shoot any .40 ammo.
This is because there is no such thing as .40 +P.

Again, post some standard pressure non +P 9mm ammo stats that compete with the .40S&W.

Easy

 

[Boris bush]

It takes hot Double-Tap 9mm +P ammo to compete with the .40.

A laugh a minute I see today.

I just went to Winchesters website. Great place. I took a looksee at 147 grain 9mm and 180 grain 40. Both move at the same velocity.

The 9mm expands .04" less, but it penetrates .2" more.

Just go to the lawenforcement comparison tool and pick and compare to your hearts content.

This is gettin' good....

FWIW, and I do not know if you will really grasp this, but sectional density has everything to do with penetration. An interesting note to make is the 9mm 147 grain will on average have about .006 higher sectional density than a 180 grain 40 caliber. Any speed you can drive a 180 40 caliber to, so can a 147 9mm. The slightly better sectional density will mean it will penetrate everso slightly more when both move at the same speed. Just as seen on Winchesters comparison tool.....

 

[Boris bush]

And the barrel lengths used were what?
And was the .45 +P ammo?

Keep in mind +P 45 is only 23,000psi. Barely more than standard psi.

Go to Corbons site and look at the velocity. Go to Winchesters site and look at 9mm 147 compared to 40 180s at the same speeds.

It seems that valorius and I have given more than enough facts to justify what we say. How about YOU provide some links that indeed prove the superiority of the 40. I just aint seeing it and the standard psi 147 9mm performance I looked up just reinforces what I have known for 20 years now. Great marketing and plenty of hype will sell anything..

 

[REAPER4206969]

when the Military accepts it as a viable combat caliber then it will be more than just marketing hype and speculation.

The Coast Guard recently adopted it (P229DAK), and Army special forces (CAG) are using it in the Glock 22.