historical question - Gene Stoner, AR-10 and AR-15

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max popenker

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hello

maybe someone can enlighten me.

Some books said tha the AR-10 rifle ad been designed BEFORE Stoner joined the Armalite. Most sources also said that AR-15 was more or less a scaled-down AR-10. And most sources attribute the AR-15 to Eugene Stoner.

so - what exactly did Stoner with AR-15?
 
Max,

Get the following book to answer almost all your questions and provide a lot of fascinating information.

(Excerpted from that site)

The Black Rifle: M16 Retrospective
By R. Blake Stevens and Edward C. Ezell
Collector Grade Publications, 1994

Format: Hardcopy
Pages: 400 pages
ISBN: 0-88935-115-5
Dimensions: 8.5" x 11"


The Black Rifle is the definitive resource on the history of the AR-15/M16; what it is, what it isn't, where it came from and why. The enhanced second printing covers up to the M16A2.

Jim
 
Stoner designed the gas system, handguards, and magazine. These are the three parts most complained about. In fact, the magazine was redesigned by Colt, the handguards were redesigned by Colt, and the gas system was responsible for countless problems in the field.

Stoner also designed the cartridge. Strangely, the bullet Stoner designed was merely a scaled down verison of ogive on the M1 Ball ammo. This bullet turned out to be 68 grains and ballistically perfect. Because Gene wasn't a ballistics expert, he merely shortened the bullet so as to make it 55 grains and get more velocity. You can compare this to using a 125gr bullet in a 30-06. When the bullet was redesigned to a ballistically perfect 55gr bullet, the Army said no because Stoner would have made it that way if that was the way it should be!!! This is in spite of and in the face of the fact that the bullet was superior. Stoner himself complained about that one! He questioned why they didn't redesign his bullet or develop his rifle?

It is my opinion that the .223 cartridge lacks the design elements to be reliable. Stoner would later whine to the Ichord commission that it was the fault of the powder being used that caused the gun to malfunction. Excuse me? Might it have something to do with the fact that the gun defacates where it eats?

George Sullivan designed the barrel-receiver-bolt lockup system (Patent # 3,027,672) to allow an aluminum receiver and also designed the stock (Patent # 2,753,642). Melvin Johnson designed the bolt. Interestingly enough, Stoner deleted Melvin Johnson's blade ejector and replaced it with the plunger ejector. Why? Perhaps to make it less reliable and more complicated? Stoner designed the AR-10 and the AR-16. Armalite design teams took Stoner's designs and scaled them down to the AR-15 and AR-18 respectively.

I find it hilarious that Stoner is given credit for the AR-15 when the best features were designed by Sullivan and Johnson and the worst parts of the gun are the only ones he can take credit for. Oh, forgot that Stoner also devised the trigger mechanism. I have no real problem with that system but there were about ten other better systems to chose from at the time.

In Stoner's defense, he improved a good deal with the AR-16 / AR-18 and later with the Stoner 63. Either of these three rifles could have been DEVELOPED into a better rifle than the M-16 turned out to be. McNamara was perhaps the most EVIL person in history. He personally closed Springfield Armory because they disagreed with his Hair-Brained ideas... namely the SPIW and the fact that he was under the impression that the AR-15 was fully developed in prototype form!!! The Emperor has no clothes... McNamara... Gah, don't get me started.
 
He personally closed Springfield Armory because they disagreed with his Hair-Brained ideas... namely the SPIW and the fact that he was under the impression that the AR-15 was fully developed in prototype form!!! The Emperor has no clothes... McNamara... Gah, don't get me started.

have to add that this situation was exacerbated(sp?) by the fact that the Armory WAS being obstructionist, and had even sabotaged tests to make the AR-15/M-16 look like COMPLETE junk instead of simply a prototype in need of refinement (as you said even stoner didn't truly think the prototype was "ready for field use"), this IS moderated by the fact that SA was doing so out of both hidebound ideas about design and FEAR (untill the m-16 SA WAS the US Military rifle design firm, those men KNEW that if accepted the M-16 was the end their jobs). but then again McNamara was as my father once put it "so smart he was stupid" maybe the "fully developed in prototype" cocept was a result of his time working For Ford Motor Co.??? i truly think that his out look from other industries made him not understand how Firearms design works.


oh and on the subject of your implication fo Stoner passing the buck and saying it was the powder instead of a design flaw.... it WAS the powder!! the gun was never, and is still not designed for use with higher pressure, dirtier, Ball powder.
Stoner based his design on the use of newer Extruded "stick" powders that were cleaner burning and produced lower port pressure, this was also the reason Colt marketed the gun as "self cleaning" in comparison to say a garand or other earlier gas-operated guns, when use with the right "food" it WAS. the military's edict that the older Ball powder be used (numerous reasons for that one, use up the vast post-WW2 stores, the increase in velocity and cyclic rate etc) caused such wretchedly excessive fouling, and over stressed a design NOT designed for such high port pressure.

is the AR-15 a flawed design?? possibly but with the numbers out there right now i don't see that it's flawed enough to matter (ALL firearms have flaws no gun is perfect). WAS the M-16 ready for service? NO!! it needed some of, if not all the refinements it received in the course of the past 30-40 years. BUT most if not all of the major faults and the deaths that resulted from said faults, found it's early service life can NOT be placed at the feet of any one man.... Stoner made a prototype that, once they started evaluating it, he fully expected to be DEVELOPED by the military (ie addition of the Chrome lined bore/chamber, and other small changes, which were unneeded for development/civilian use) and he expected them to pay attention to the specs he gave them with regards to what ammo to use. then Armalite sold the rights to Colt, colt decided that they could capitalize on how much cleaner the rifle stayed when loaded with "stick" powder when compared to other Autos when loaded with Ball. Ordnance decided that Ball powder MUST be used (higher velocities and "we have it by the barge load"), guns sent out to un-familiarized troops with no cleaning kits (Colt DID say it was self cleaning!!.....) other ammo problems (there is a reason GI ammo is neck annealed).

Ok, so an underdeveloped rifle being fed unsuitable ammunition, was issued to troops not familiar enough with it's mechanics and woefully under equiped to clean and maintain it, fighting a country that was wet, and dirtier than a begger's underwear... end result, men died trying to figure out WHY the gun they were told by their superiors was a "wonder weapon" suddenly stopped working.

blaming Eugene Stoner for the ALL AR-15s service faults is like blaming the architect if your contractor reads the plans the wrong way around and screws up your new house!!
 
I think blaming Stoner might be appropriate IF you take the view that demanding a certain kind of powder is impractical. The AR10/15 gas system has some advantages, but is by no means a necessity. An M16 with a piston would have been 95% as useful as the the regular M16, and wouldn't have required such a particular diet.

I imagine McNamara was in love with the ballistics, handling, cyclic rate etc of the AR, not the bolt design. Any design that would have performed similarly would have been acceptable, but in 1960ish, the AR15 was the only choice going in .223.



If it was left to Springfield to come up with a .223 weapon, the Mini-14 would have come out much earlier.:D
 
oh and on the subject of your implication fo Stoner passing the buck and saying it was the powder instead of a design flaw.... it WAS the powder!! the gun was never, and is still not designed for use with higher pressure, dirtier, Ball powder.
Yes, it was the ball powder. The reason for this was that the ball powder had a different pressure curve. However, the spherical powder only served to identify a problem that is implicit to the design of the AR-15... it's FINICKY about what powder you feed it. Port pressure is CRITICAL to the proper function of the rifle as is fouling rate. These are not factors that were important to most other rifles and they point out a fatal flaw in the design. Stoner realized this (after all, the AR-10 he designed was only a prototype) and designed the AR-16 with a more conventional SVT 38/40 style piston assembly.
blaming Eugene Stoner for the ALL AR-15s service faults is like blaming the architect if your contractor reads the plans the wrong way around and screws up your new house!!
Okay, I might have been a little hard on the guy. One thing I'd like to pull from my above rant is that Stoner did not 'design' the AR-15. Those parts that were most appreciated (light weight and ergonomics) were Sullivan and, (darn name escapes me) Dorchester? Stoner applied the Sullivan receiver and stocks and the Johnson bolt to his flawed gas system. Comparing Stoner to Browning is like comparing Marconi to Tesla. Maybe I'm just a gun-designer monotheist? (see tag line)

Handy: Yes, demanding a certian type of powder in a military arm is wrong, but I didn't really intend to blame Gene . I want to bring his deification down to earth a little and give credit (and blame) where it was due. BTW, do you find any fault with the barrel / reciever construction and design, inline design, lightweight stock design, or multi-lugged bolt? How many people know that Stoner was not responsible for these, the best features of 'his' gun. Did you know that Stoner never designed the gas-tube on top of the barrel. He had it on the side!
 
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Sorry, Don, but this is a subject I've been quite adamant about for years. I'm sure I would have liked Gene Stoner had I known him. I feel that way too many people worship the M-16 way too much. Had there not been this atmosphere, the gun would have been developed into quite a weapon system. As it is, we have been stuck with inferior autoloading rifles since the days of Garand. There is a very sound historical basis for saying that the gas system is flawed and that the Army could have and should have fixed the problem with any number of gas systems available to them. The M-1 Garand rifle was originally designed and produced in significant quantaties with the 'gas trap' style of gas system. This was completely overhauled and retrofitted when they realized that a better system could be devised. The M-14 lacked an effective way to clean the gas system. The M-1 Carbine was even worse and more difficult to clean.

Colt designed a modified AR-15 with a conventional gas system that solved all of these problems. What did the Army do? Well, they wouldn't have any of it. Stoner didn't design it that way and they'd finally gotten their contractors to produce PASSABLE M-16's that worked IF you kept them clean and IF you kept the bore dry and IF you kept the port cover closed and IF... etc. etc. They could have fixed the gas system. It would have been cheaper than what they ended up doing when the produced a whole new weapon (The M-16A2).

I get way too emotional about this. I know, I know, this probably has little to do with the original post. It's just that I feel the Army Brass and McNamara intentionally SCREWED the soldiers in the field for their own purposes and to serve their own prejudices and egos. The M-16 is now the product of 40 years of neglect, back-stabbing, ignorance, and outright incompetence and we're STUCK with it. Sure, it works great with all the IFs in place. The problem is, do we really want a military rifle that has to be treated with kid gloves?
 
Badger- I just finished "Misfire". Have you read it?
If you have, I'd be interested in your opinion of the author's take on the AR-15/M-16 development.

Author's name is Callahan. My son's reading the book now, and I don't feel like going downstairs to find out what his first name is.

Published in 1994, it's out of print (!?) already. History of development of small arms from colonial times to AR-15. Very critical of Army Ordance Dept.--but based on thesis that "firepower" is more important that aimed fire in modern battlefield.
 
Haven't read that one yet. I don't buy into the firepower theory much. I think the Germans had it right in WWII. Use machineguns in well-prepared (defensive) positions or well-protected (offensive) positions. The MG acts as a magnet for fire and creates a safe 'kill-zone.' The other gunners in the squad methodically plink away at wherever they think the enemy is hiding.

The firepower advocates can use the argumetnt that the ability to hit a person goes up with the number of shots fired. DUH!!! of course it does. What gets lowered is the percentage of rounds that actually cause a casualty. The problem is that, with the exception of the Marines, modern warfare is taught with the firepower model. I'd imagine that if every sling in the Army had a scoped Remington 700, the 'hit ration' would skyrocket. The problem is, they don't want to take the time to teach these guys how to shoot. There's also the retarded philosophy that it's "Uncivilized" to shoot people with a scoped rifle. A certain stigma is attached with the cold, personal act of taking careful aim at your target and pulling the trigger. Buck fever is one thing, they actually teach these grunts in High School how to be a caring, feeling individual. How hard must it be to break that and teach them to be a cold blooded killer? BS... What value is the philosophy that you spray 100,000 bullets into a target zone and kill one enemy? Maybe we won't know who killed him? Maybe the soldiers can now feel better about theirselves? BS...

Don't get me wrong, there's a place for firepower. The crew-served machinegun is the most efficient killing machine ever invented. The Germans, British, and French all understood this and have a history of Machine-Gun tactics. The US Army was slow to develop automatic rifles, but the BAR was an oustanding example of how to do things right. I also like the M-60, SAW, and MAG. When used in concert with the accurate M-16 or M-4 fired on SEMI-AUTO, these are very effective tools.
 
I feel the Army Brass and McNamara intentionally SCREWED the soldiers in the field for their own purposes and to serve their own prejudices and egos. The M-16 is now the product of 40 years of neglect, back-stabbing, ignorance, and outright incompetence and we're STUCK with it

i totally agree with you there... each in it's own way, Mcnamara by ramrodding, and Army Ord by eventually (in exasperartion, of SecDef's antics) stepping back and taking an "ok we'll let you hang youself with your own rope, we WON'T let you know what REALL needs fixing". was trying to Screw the other and Grunts died over a political pissing contest!!

i think that if Army Ordnance had just accepted the basic design and then brought in Stoner and/or the REST of the Armalite/colt design and development folks, and said, "it's a good prototype, but it needs to be soldier-proofed". thus allowing a FULLY developed weapon to reach service a year or two later, instead of what amounted to a semi-debugged prototype IMEDIATELY. alot of lives (and taxpayer money) would have been saved,

of course if the military had REALLY wanted to keep "casualties from politics" down there'd have been an "accident" during one of McNamara's vists to a base or Vietnam...... :evil: but i digress.


i want to say that my intent with my first post wasn't meant to defend the M-16, simply to point out that most of the gun's troubles were caused AFTER stoner was out of the loop, or by poor understanding of "the way it works" in firearms design by politicians.

pesonally i think the M-16 (pre-A1 ) was an abortion and a death trap in combat. the A1 was better but still needed "gormet food".

as for the A2 i have a distinct (and long winded :D ) oppinion on that... why in the #@*& did we decide to go to a rifle with a more complex sight system when 90% of our infantry soldiers can't take advatage of the upgrade well enough to matter (even BEFORE the traing cut backs)? and of that 10% that CAN use the A2 sights to an advantage, they have a less than 10% chance of ever NEEDING that advantage if they DO get into combat??
i think the canadians had the right idea with the C7, upgrade the working parts of the rifle while maintaing a rugged battlesight system.
 
For accuracy sake. The XM-16E1 was the Army version that had all of the troubles. Most of these had been solved by the time -- in 1967 -- that the gun was officially adopted as the M-16A1. The M-16 was the Air Force version differing only in the lack of a forward assist feature. The changes were made incrementally as they 'popped up' in combat! There were over 100 individual changes made to the rifle between adoption as the XM-16E1 and it's standardization as the M-16A1. These changes would have to be paid for in blood due to McNamara's idiotic ego. :banghead:
 
Badger, et al: So one final question: Is "ball" powder now extinct? Or could one run across it in a batch of surplus ammo? Does any nation still use it?
 
IIRC, according to "The Black Rifle," ball powder itself was not to blame. It was remanufactured ball powder that had to be buffered with calcium carbonate to mitigate the acid content (I think). The additive is what clogged up the works. Other new manufacture ball powder did not have the problem. Much of the ammo people use today is loaded with H322 and Win 748? which are both ball powder.
 
As to the A2 sights, the US seems to have always designed it's battle rifles for performance at Camp Perry, rather than in the field. After a full testing protocol, they chose the M14 over the FAL and AR-10. This beggers the imagination.


The weird thing, in all of this, is the wide adoption of the M16 and spinoffs. But if Dr. Porsche can make a controllable rear engine sports car, I guess a direct gas rifle can be made to work well too.
 
Guys...if you had to go into a battle tomorrow, would you take the M-16A2 or an FN-FAL?
 
Army "Firepower"

This is a very interesting thread and I've learned something about the history of the M-16 series of rifles.

I do want to comment on the notion of "firepower." I think in the above posts when you say "firepower" you are meaning "suppressive fire."

Sometimes I think people think that the US Army simply teaches its riflemen to simply blaze away in the general direction of the enemy and that the shear volume of firepower will kill the enemy. This is far from the truth.

Get out the current Army marksmanship manual and you will see that the Army teaches its soldiers to take well aimed shots and that the doctrine is for the standard rifleman to fire in the semi-automatic mode. Volume firepower is done by the SAW and the platoon's machine guns. Remember that prior to the SAW entering service, one soldier per fireteam was designated as the automatic rifleman and was issued a bipod.

If a unit follows the marksmanship training as stated in the manual a soldier will go through zero, known distance firing, practice record firing and record firing in a week. All soldiers are required to do this once a year with infantry units required to qualify twice a year. Good infantry battalions do it once a quarter.

In my view, the army qualification course of presenting random man-sized targets at various ranges, including multiple engagements is excellent training. It prepares the soldier for the battlefield much better than firing at a bull’s-eye at a fixed range.

Recently, my state rifle and pistol association was allowed to shoot the Army record fire course. We did one modification; we allowed the shooter to take as much ammo to the range as he wanted. Currently the Army gives the shooter 40 rounds in which to engage 40 targets. The shooter can engage a target with more than one round as long as the target is presented (usually a few seconds. But the shooter will then later have a miss because he will not have enough rounds to engage all targets. So usually the troops only reengage near targets if they happen to miss it.

Back to the state association shoot. I took two 30 round mags to the firing point. If I missed a target I immediately reengaged it and always hit it with the second round. It struck me that this is more realistic. In combat you would expect your soldiers to engage a target again if missed on the first shot, but our qualification course of fire actually discourages multiple shots on target. You fight as you train, remember?

The US Army has effective and sound marksmanship doctrine. Whether it is implemented is a leadership issue, usually at the battalion level.

Now, suppressive fire has its tactical uses. It is used when you wish to advance on an enemy position that has protection. A squad plus the platoon machine guns places sustained fire on the position either killing the bad guys or forcing them to go to ground and not return fire or return fire ineffectively while the other squads maneuver to close with the enemy to kill them.

Although most reporting from Iraq is anecdotal, it seems that the infantry units performed well, (very well!) in firefights against the Iraqis. But the CS and CSS units got an eye-opener with the ambush of the 507th maintenance Company. The CS and CSS types are prone to pay minimal attention to small arms training because of the notion "hey, I'm in the rear with gear!" Well, "the Rear" is a very dangerous place. I've found in studies in my job that if a vehicle convoy is ambushed, the chances of survival (and escape) increase if the ambushees immediately return fire, and if possible counterattack the ambush. This usually turns surprise back onto the ambushers. To be able to do so, the units need to train situational awareness, have the .50 Cals on the ring mounts, loaded and manned etc.

Firepower is the answer to most tactical problems. Shoot the bad guy and he stops shooting back....
 
Sadly, the men and women of the 507th probably didn't have the M2's. They were also issued weapons that need to be constantly cleaned. Had they had AK's or G-36's, they would have been able to return fire. I haven't been reading the 'monster post' about this group. In combat, do you always close up your 'dust cover' and put a muzzle cap on your weapon? I didn't see one photo released that showed pantyhose on any weapon. No condoms on the barrels either. I suspect that these are stories that come from arm-chair soldiers. Strangely, I rugularly saw the Air Force Base Defense folks with the plastic muzzle caps and the dust covers closed.
 
While in the service I always used a little bit of black electrical tape over the muzzle and any where else I thought dust and rain etc. should be kept out. I continue that practice to this day 30 years later when I go hunting.
 
fyi,,,

i recently asked bushmaster if the gas tube clog problem had been solved and they replied that the failure was due to the dirtier ball powder and that with the new powder (stick?) it was not an issue...


m
 
Here's your words, Dannyboy:

In my time in the Army, I shot the M16 in the rain and snow of Germany, in the mud and dust of TX/OK, and in the deserts of White Sands, NM and Kuwait. The only problems I ever had were either ammo or magazine problems. Not including blanks, of course.

If you'd like to add your opinion to this discussion, please do. I don't see the point of you quoting me and putting a sarcastic icon there. Your sample of one seems to fly in the face of many studies and personal experiences of many board members that seem to disagree with you. For the purposes of this discussion, please explain that you were shooting the M-16A1, M-16A2, or which other weapon? Explain what ammo you were using. Explain how often you maintanined your weapon. Explain your depth of experience with the AK-47, AKM, AK-74, AKSU-74, or any other Soviet block weapon in the same circumstances with the same maintenance practices. Explain something please, you're the expert and I respectfully ask for a contrary opinion.
 
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