History lesson

[Jonesy9]

let's be honest Oji...

it's clear that your threadjack of out of the blue asking me why I support socialists was as much of an attack as you dared make under the rules here.

I'm not sensitive at all and would flame war you all day but it's not allowed here so that was my little jab back at you.

We obviously have different religious and societal views. That's fine, I respect non-Christian views and have plenty of agnostic friends. No harm, no foul.


but back to the topic. I'm dying to hear back from jsalcedo, he claims to see evidence of this easily debunked post every day. I'm wondering where in tarnation this poster lives!!

 

[ojibweindian]

Nope. Not agnostic, but a good ole Southern Baptist!

 

[jsalcedo]

I'm dying to hear back from jsalcedo, he claims to see evidence of this easily debunked post every day. I'm wondering where in tarnation this poster lives!!

I am referring to the evidence of America being in the dependence/bondage state the original author refers to.

A couple of years ago my wife and I were living on a not so nice part of town, driving 25 year old cars and scrimping and saving for a house.

I would go to the local store and buy beans, rice, generic brands, no steak,
no ice cream etc...

I get up to the checkout line and the 3 people in front of me are paying with food stamps. They have T bones, cases of Pepsi, $4 a box cereal,
and tons of junk food.

Glancing around, everyone in every checkout isle within my sight is paying with food stamps/ lonestar card.

Paying cash for my $27 of groceries I walk out to my 1973 plymouth
and notice that of the two food stamp payers one is driving new Caddilac Escalade and the other a Mercedes coupe.

Thats where my taxes are going.

As far as the bondage goes, look at the patriot act, TSA, ATF, McCain Fiengold, IRS, Guys having to pay child support for kids thay didn't father
by order of the government. The fact that my family pays by threat of force
$38, 000 dollars a year in federal taxes, medicare, social security.
bonus and capital gains taxes.

 

[ojibweindian]

jsalcedo

Jonesy probably didn't want to hear that

 

[agricola]

el tejon,

Look at Spartan history - for a state thats generally considered to have been geared for war, its remarkable how the Sparta of 480, at the pinnacle of the Greek world, is by 360 a mere bit part player on even the Greek stage, its kings turned into mercenaries.

The fact that this fall came so suddenly is because of the flaws inherent in the various aspects of the Lycurgan system - especially the oppression of the helot and (to a much lesser extent) perioeci, which prevented defeats or costly victories being recoverable (the earthquake in the 460's for example). When one looks at how the Romans faired during their history - especially the Second Punic War (for which Cannae remains the world's most bloody battle in the course of a day), one is struck by how many battles they survive losing, even seemingly terminal ones like Cannae, or the Allia. Sparta would never be able to survive anything like a setback on that scale, as proved to be the case (had Epimondias not died, it would have been interesting whether he would have gone on and attacked the defenceless city).

This flaw was probably recognizable to Pausanias and was recognized by Aegisilaus, but it took down to the coming of Flaminius to actually produce some stability in the Spartan system (by turning the state into a theme park); which by that time had reduced even some Spartiates (of a population of about a 1000 full Spartiates) to penury (the Lives of Agis and Cleomenes by Plutarch illustrate the nobles fight to preserve their holdings over the helots, as well as the Spartiates who had lost their rights due to debt).

These flaws are compounded by the exposure to a more flexible system, or a successful state, like Athens was prior to the Peloponnesian War (though that city in itself often appears chaotic) or Thebes under Epimondias.

Besides, being resistant to change does not equal stability - far from it, in fact.

 

[Jonesy9]

Actually Oji...

I can understand jcensla's opinion on that. no doubt there is a welfare class. I lived amongst it in college cause that neighborhood was all we could afford. I'd get offerrred .75 .50 cents on the dollar if I'd buy stamps so they could buy tobacco and lottery.

But in the real world, only a small portion of your taxes is going to those people who abuse the system. There are far greater abuses to be concerned with.

I don't agree that we're in the dependence state or with the 200 year experation date on democracy though. Like the business cycle we have a political cycle, we're just in a down cycle like in the 20's.

But railing against welfare while we spend four times that subsiding businesses is fruitless. At least we used to be able to make the argument that the subsidies produced jobs, but now those jobs go offshore and the businesses avoid paying any of it back thru mailboxes in the Caymans. But I digress...

 

[Baba Louie]

Olson failed to add that the Blue/Gore areas were the areas most heavily Unionized as well.
If I just look at the State of Nevada, my home state, Clark County (home of Las Vegas, a Very Unionized town) is the single "Blue" surrounded by Red (well, at the southern tip in a sea of Red, if I'm being State specific).
Most Union workers I know are not dependant upon government tax income, far from it. They make pretty good money at what they do.
I'm surprised a scholar would not take note of this fact, unless it didn't fit well into his argument of the moment.
We'll see much the same in the upcoming election methinks.
As to the cycle of a "democracy" my father taught me that most things in life work in this fashion... cyclical or pendulum swings. I find some validity to that theory (but then again, he's a Yellow Dog, Union Member/Loving, Democrat; but I still love and admire him) as nothing lasts forever and change is the only constant.
Mixing a metaphor from The Firesign Theatre and The Moody Blues here... "We're All Bozo's on this Bus... But to know who is driving, what a help it would be".
We are still pretty well off when compared to our ancestors, maybe a lot more dependant on governmental influence than many like to admit or want to see. We're certainly better off than many other nation's citizens in the world.
If you're a capitalist, you should have no problems with manufacturing jobs going to the cheap labor pools, no matter where they are, since making money is the key to your life. All government controls should keep their hands off. Exploitation by Industry.
If you're a socialist, then allowing the government to control business and hand out other people's money to the oppressed or not so oppressed is fine as long as it keeps the playing field level. Exploitation by Government.
But, if you love liberty and call youself a libertarian first, you need to strike a balance somewhere else since you can't have either and can't attract enough other libertarians to agree on a common platform where you can effectively control either the government or industry or get the poor folk off their butts to want to become self sufficient, since "Control" of others isn't your bag, liberty is. Exploitation of Self.
Free men stand alone.
And thus, are targets for the rest.
But, they're usually armed to the teeth and you find them at the head of the pack.
Once they become a Leader, who do THEY get to exploit?

History Lesson?
What comes around, goes around.
The Winner writes the History Books.
Revisionists, edit at will.
Man is born, he struggles through life, he dies; hoping some good came of it all.
Nations Rise and Fall.
White man will always try to dominate any other tribe that allows it.
Tribal warfare is a given.
What goes up, must come down.