Hollowpoints are bad, mmmkay!

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spin180

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Border Officers' Bullets Draw Fire

75 groups oppose hollow-point ammunition used by law officers and Homeland Security agencies, including the Border Patrol. Foes say it is unnecessarily lethal.

LUKE TURF
Tucson Citizen
June 19, 2003

A Pima County sheriff's deputy says a hollow-point bullet he used to kill a robbery suspect saved his and his partner's lives several years ago.
The ammunition worked as it was supposed to, which has made it controversial for decades.

When a Washington, D.C.-based legal support group learned that several Department of Homeland Security agencies, including the U.S. Border Patrol, were seeking more supplies of the rounds, it started a campaign against their use.

Local human rights group Derechos Humanos is one of 75 groups signed onto the campaign.

Critics of "controlled expansion bullets" contend the hollow-point bullets - used by the Border Patrol since the 1970s - are unnecessarily lethal.

"We don't think that (hollow points) are necessary; they cause massive injuries," said Donald Kerwin, executive director of Washington, D.C.- based Catholic Legal Immigration Network Inc. "We were shocked to find that they're standard issue for the Border Patrol and other immigration agents."
Besides Border Patrol, many law enforcement agencies use hollow-point bullets. Military personnel generally use full-metal-jacket bullets.

Hollow points are designed so the tip expands when they hit their target, dispensing all their energy into the target.

Tucson Police Department officers and Pima County Sheriff's Department deputies, who work in predominantly urban settings, use hollow points because they are less likely to rip through a human body or, say, the wall of a building, and hit an innocent bystander.

But CLINIC's Kerwin argued the Border Patrol does not need the bullets along the mainly rural U.S.-Mexico border.

CLINIC, a legal support system for nonprofit Catholic agencies that represent low-income immigrants, wants Department of Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge to stop the Border Patrol from using the ammunition. Ridge's department oversees the Border Patrol.
Kerwin said "it's no surprise" a Border Patrol agent killed a man outside Douglas recently, because the hollow-point bullets are more dangerous.

But an independent law enforcement expert in Long Beach, Calif., Anthony Paul, said no one bullet is more or less dangerous than another.

"They're both going to kill you," Paul said.

Pima County Sheriff's Department range master Sgt. Thayer Thacker said hollow-point bullets are more deadly. He knows firsthand. In 1997, using hollow-point bullets, he shot and killed an 18-year-old armed robber.

"Basically it causes more tissue damage, more blood loss, which means the person stops doing whatever they were doing, in theory," Thacker said. "We hit the guy twice and he stopped his hostile action immediately."

The Border Patrol and Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement are among the Homeland SecurityDepartment agencies seeking bids for 225 million rounds of ammunition, most likely hollow-point bullets, said Homeland Security contract specialist Paul Shannon.

Officials from the Border Patrol referred questions to the Homeland Security's National Firearms Unit, which referred questions to ICE.

A spokesman for ICE, Greg Palmore, said hollow points meet all Department of Justice use-of-force policies.
"Overall, any handgun can cause a fatality," he said.

"It's the classic law enforcement ammo," said Homeland Security's Shannon.

Kerwin said CLINIC has long wanted Border Patrol to stop using hollow points.

Shannon estimates the 225 million rounds of .40-caliber bullets would last about five years. Though the solicitation doesn't specifically seek hollow points, Shannon said they're asking manufacturers to submit the "best quality bullet."

Two Arizona congressmen are split on the issue.

U.S. Rep. Raúl Grijalva, D-Ariz., has signed the letter being circulated by U.S. Rep. Joe Baca, D-Calif. The letter essentially asks the Border Patrol to stop using the hollow points.

"It's full deadly force with the hollow point. They explode inside of you; that's the point," Grijalva said. "I can't connect the argument that they're safer because they don't go through people."
U.S. Rep. Jim Kolbe, R.-Ariz., didn't sign the letter, said Neena Moorjani, his press secretary. Instead, he issued this statement: "It is appropriate that law enforcement officers make the decision about how best to protect the lives of their officers and least threaten individuals."

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/local/6_19_03ammo_flap.html

:barf:
 
U.S. Rep. Raúl Grijalva, D-Ariz., has signed the letter being circulated by U.S. Rep. Joe Baca, D-Calif. The letter essentially asks the Border Patrol to stop using the hollow points.

"It's full deadly force with the hollow point. They explode inside of you; that's the point," Grijalva said.

I'm sure prosecuting attorneys nationwide will be pleased to know that ball ammunition is somehow less deadly force. :rolleyes:

Jeff
 
oh my gosh, i cant believe i just read that article
:barf:
some people need to get a life
if they had their way, then they would go after ball ammo as "unnecessarily lethal" and make the cops use tazers
BSR
 
So, if the various ninnies proposing a ban on JHPs have their way, BP goes back to 40 caliber FMJ. Bad guys along the border are going to look like swiss cheese after officers dump entire magazines to effect a stop.
 
UNINFORMED IDIOTS!! (IMHO)

When I was a deputy I learned in the survival seminar that you have a better chance of STOPPING some wayward miscreant's anti-social behavior with one (or two) hollowpoints in an appropriate caliber (let's not start THAT argument here). If you had to use "ball" or jacketed on non-expanding ammo he probably WOULDN'T STOP so you shoot him again, and again, and again.......... You get the picture. If you get him to the ER he has a better chance of survival the LESS number of holes in him. So.......... the HP is the BETTER round for stopping and survival.
Sounds like more uninformed sheeple making decisions based on emotion instead of logic. Maybe we should just ask the nasty people to reflect on their negative actions and reconsider their options.
My sheriff let us carry anything we could qualify with (.38 or better) and ISSUED Winchester Silvertip HP ammo for my .45. I never had to shoot anyone with it (only time I HAD to shoot someone was with an AK-47- that works, but that is another story) but the seminar training is the best in the country. Maybe that's why I never had to shoot, because of better tactics and awareness.
 
Jeff..

I mean haven't you woken up in the morning and said to yourself; "Gee, I'm SOOO glad I was shot with 308 ball ammo instead of hollow points"? :D

This is so stupid.. I feel dumber after reading this...
 
He may have not played the Race Card...

But played this one:
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"Foes say it is unnecessarily lethal."

OK, maybe I'm slow, but what exactly is "unnecessarily leathal"? I always thought if I was going to shoot someone, leathal was leathal. If use of deadly force was justified it was justified. I never heard of a "sorta deadly" force.
 
What was it that Sam Clemmins said?

Imagine you're in Congress.
Now imagine you're an idiot, but I repeat myself.




KC
 
I really have trouble with the argument that since the military doesn't need expanding bullets that LEOs or civilians don't need them either. People who make this argument really have no concept of the context of application. I may not need expanding ammo as a GI given that I am shooting a rifle, maybe a full auto subgun or machinegun, how the rest of my company with me for fire support, have grenades, RPGs, a TOW missile or two, and can call in precision dropped bombs, straifing, etc. as needed. As a GI, when I travel into battle, I can rest assured knowing there will be gunships providing cover.

Most LEOs do not deploy with rifles, nor do I as a civilian, so the huge destructive force offer by high velocity rifle rounds is not something I have at hand like the military. Instead, it is going to be a puny sidearm that at best is marginally effective compared to a rifle. Most LEOs travel alone or with just one partner and don't have the benefit of the numbers of good guys in their favor for conflicts and their partners are going to have sidearms as well, maybe a shotgun. While LEOs may be able to radio in for help, there will be no gunships arriving or bombs dropping to support them, or me either as a civilian.

My guess is that these groups trying to protect people from evil hollowpoint ammo simply feel that hollowpoints are too deadly. What they apparently want is ammo that just makes a person a little bit dead and not a whole lot dead. Of course the point here is that dead is dead. Hollowpoints just may speed up the process is all.
 
jacketed bullets

Actually the military likes jacketed bullets because it probably won't kill an opponent outright (I know it sounds dumb, but listen on.....). If your squadmate gets hit but not killed, you will get out of the fight to help him and bandage him up, call a medic to treat him, he will call transportation to get him to an aid center or MASH, doctors will treat him, nurses will care for him until he can return to the battle. That's a lot of people and $$$ out of the battle. If your squadmate was killed outright you would continue the fight and send him home in a box when you got a chance. You might even fight harder because some SOB killed your buddy.

A LEO isn't trying to kill ANYBODY, but sometimes it is very important that he make someone STOP what they are doing RIGHT NOW! If the BG dies that is unfortunate, but he brought it upon himself. Sounds like these uninformed idiots (IMHO) want him to be only a little bit dead. They should stay home and not go out into the real world.
 
U.S. Rep. Raúl Grijalva, D-Ariz. Is the only Democrat in Arizona’s entire Congressional Delegation. His district is, for the most part in Tucson and the Hispanic vote is the only thing that keeps him in Washington. He is by all accounts, a “Liberal’s Liberal†and what he knows about firearms you could put on the small end of a pin. This dolt thinks that hollow points’ “explode†inside the body(!?) Sharp he is not. Regrettably the people who vote for him aren’t either.
 
Lets see, its so more safer to be shot 6-10 times with hardball than once with a JHP. After all, with hardball you now have 12-20 times as many holes to bleed out of, and a much greater chance of a critical organ being hit, and a much greater chance of the bullet that went through you all the way hitting some bystander behind you.
 
Geez, pass out the blankets, it's nap time after cookies and milk. Someones getting cranky...WAAAHHHHH!!!! WAHHHHH!!!!! They're using EXPLODING BULLETS on those poor, undocumented workers who only want to come here and expand our multicultural horizons.

I think it's time to take a page from the Roman Empire where their senators had to go into battle with the legions. Ok, Congressman, you think they shouldn't use hollowpoints? Very well. YOU get to respond to a call for an armed man with just a handgun loaded with FMJ, by YOURSELF. Too busy? Thought so... :rolleyes: Every politician is brave with the OTHER guys' lives.
 
"It's full deadly force with the hollow point. They explode inside of you; that's the point," Grijalva said. "I can't connect the argument that they're safer because they don't go through people."

Is there such a thing as Full Deadly Force? Deadly Force is Deadly Force and the outcome is the same.:banghead:

"They explode inside of you;" No No No. Expand and Explode are 2 very different things.

The fact that he can't connect that argument that they are safer because they don't go through people....and he has some political power. Get this bafoon out of his office.
 
U.S. Rep. Raúl Grijalva, D-Ariz., has signed the letter . . .
One of the usual suspects . . . sometimes sterotypes fit very well. As I was reading the article, I figured "I smell Democrats behind this" and a few sentences later, my hunch was confirmed.

And looking at the larger problem of illegal immigration, I've concluded that many people in government just hate this country and are trying to cause harm to it. Rep. Grijalva is just the latest to surface.
These clowns may represent "nonprofit Catholic agencies...," but they represent Catholics the way People For the American Way represent the Americans.
I couldn't have said this better myself.
 
If a LEO has a legitimate need to put down a bad guy because he is an immediate, deadly threat to that LEO or others... I'm all for giving them whatever will make the bad guy dead the quickest. The most effective way to stop violent actions is to kill the person committing them (duh). The least dangerous person is a dead one. Hence, if a LEO needs to shoot somebody... they should have the ammo that is most effective at doing the deed. I don't care if the ammo blows up, splits the person in two halves, then (through microtechnology) dumps those two halves into blenders, followed by 15 minutes on liquify. If it's effective, give it to ‘em.

Damn Democrats. :cuss:
 
Okay, so we ban hollowpoints.

How long until people complain about the innocent people behind the badguy getting hit when the FMJs the police will have to use overpenetrate? Or the FMJs go through the wall of the building behind the badguy when he misses?

Okay, so then no FMJs ... cops turn in their Glocks for guns that can shoot lead. How long until the liberals bitch about the evils of lead poisoning?

What do you call a liberal capable of thought? A conservative :neener:
 
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