Home Defense and Competition - What to get?

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StressPuppy

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Ok, I am looking for a good multipurpose shotgun. I would like to have one that is a good home defense/tactical gun and one that I could use for shotgun side matches (at IDPA matches) and in 3 gun competitions. I don't see myself shoot skeet with it, but it could happen.

I am a cheapskate, so I would like to do this with one gun. I currently have a Winchester 1300 from the 70s that was used for Duck hunting and a little skeet shooting. It basically sits right now.

To this point, I have not been much of a pump guy. I have shot them, but only a few times. Did fine, but I have shot much more semi auto and that is what I feel most comfortable with. Not that I couldn't change, but....then there is felt recoil.

I have looked at the guns below. Cost IS an issue, but I would much rather save up for "the" gun then buy one and wish I had waited.

Remington 870 Express
Remington 870 Police (forged version of Express - anything else?)
Mossberg 590
Mossberg 590A1

Saiga (5 rnd mags - hard to seat mags )
Remington 1187
Benelli M1 Super 90 Tactical w/Pistol grip 18.5" barrel

I REALLY like the Benelli. But the cost has me trembling (and scared of what my wife will do if I bring it home!!) Is it really worth it? Is it overkill for someone that won't shoot it that much?

What is the difference in felt recoil from the 870 to the Benelli (recoil operated) to the 1187 (gas operated)?

What things need to be considered when in tactical situations? Is a pump or semi better?

I understand some of this (if not all) is subjective. I am asking for opinions and personal experiences, so fire away.

THANKS!!!!
 
While I may not be the world's expret on shotties, I did just buy a Winchester Defender. I love it. You can put out rounds as fast as you can pump. Really nice.
 
Have you seen the Vursan? A pretty well-made Benelli copy from Turkey. A friend of mine has one (a hunting model with a 28" bbl) and is very pleased with it.

There's also a custom shop here that makes them into full-blown tactical competition guns at a fraction of a Benelli price (ok, that's quite far from where you're at) - here. Just to show the potential. A local gun rag described them as "better finished than one would've expected".
 
Buy the Benelli. Expensive, but worth it :). Try the rest, then buy the best. It is worth saving your money for.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
Maybe it's me, but the few Benellis I've shot so far have been harder kickers than my 870s.

You've got a decent shotgun now. Add another 1300 in more "Serious" dress, with a mag tube to the muzzle. Now buy a mess of ammo and go have fun. Practice with one will almost be practice with the other.

Watch a good pumpgunner work skeet doubles. Or true pairs at SC. No wasted motion, and hulls are flicked as fast as most autos.

And, a 7lb pump firing off one oz loads at 1275 FPS will have about the same felt recoil as an 8 lbs gas auto shooting max dram 1 1/8 oz. An oz will do more than we credit it for.
 
Compared to Dave and others here, I'm a relative novice with a shotgun and even I have shot Skeet doubles with an 870. It's not that difficult. The confidence you build doing it makes a lot of things with a shotgun seem easy. When you consider the low cost, thelegendary reliability and durability of an 870 is worth giving it a try.
 
Disclaimer: These are my experiences and my experiences only. Your mileage may vary.

What is the difference in felt recoil from the 870 to the Benelli (recoil operated) to the 1187 (gas operated)?
Click to expand...

The Benelli is inertia operated (just being anal). :D
With that being said, I've fired nearly a dozen 870s throughout my life (not nearly as many as other members) and do not notice much of a difference between felt recoil with the 870 and Benelli M1s. Most of the 870s and all of the Benellis that I've fired were of the "social" variety.

The 1187s that I've fired felt more like a "push" than the proverbial "kick" associated with pumps and the Benellis.

This is my recoil inequality:
870 <= M1S90 > 1187

What things need to be considered when in tactical situations? Is a pump or semi better?
Click to expand...

I've never been in a "tactical" situation where I needed to defend myself or adjust anyone's attitude with my scattergun.

As to whether or not a pump is better than a semi for a "tactical" situation, that is the gateway to a much heated debate.

I opt for the semi as I haven't encountered a semi that was finicky. Until I do, then I might change my mind. Go with what you have confidence in.

I had the pleasure to attend a shotgun course and the weapons systems that failed to fail were users with semis. The weapons systems that did fail were users with pumps.

I say "system" because the user IS the majority of a weapons system. With that beind said, some users were the weakest link. Others truly had malfunctions with their guns.

...the cost has me trembling (and scared of what my wife will do if I bring it home!!) Is it really worth it? Is it overkill for someone that won't shoot it that much?
Click to expand...

I advise you to save your nickels and dimes for what you really want. Talk it over with your wife if you have to.

Pay once, cry once.
If paying once means buying the bargain basement shotgun, and you're absolutely happy with it, then you did yourself right. Same goes if you purchased it's super-expensive counterpart.

If you're hardly going to use your shotgun, do you really want it?

Jim
 
D of L - Thanks for the correction. I, too, have accused of being anal retentive, so correct is GOOD!!!

And thanks to all for the info given. I am going out this afternoon with a friend to shoot a Remington 870 Police and a Benelli M1 Tactical. Should give me a good sense of things. If nothing else, shooting is ALWAYS better than working!!!!!
 
Is your main self defense HANDGUN a semi auto? Is your main self defense RIFLE a semi auto? If so, your best bet is to go with a semi auto shotgun. Most people these days shoot semi autos and are therefore conditioned to pull the trigger and bang, pull the trigger and bang...... I see it over and over again, in a stressful situation, people forget to rack the slide on a pump gun. When it comes to self defense, try to keep as much commomality as you can in your equipment. When things get ugly they get ugly fast. The last thing you need to do is be thinking which firearm you have in your hands. As always YMMV.:D
 
Very good point TT. I have a Glock 19 and a STG58 FAL as my "main" other guns, so a semi shotgun would make sense. For my Glock and FAL, I put in ammo and I pull the trigger. They ALWAYS go bang, which is probably the most important thing. I hear pretty much the same thing about the Benelli. The shooter can do things to screw things up, but if you stick to the basics, it should always work.

Could be an interesting group black Glock, black FAL, black Benelli.............
 
I love my Glock and my FAL. Said I would never own and "ugly" Glock, but dang if I don't shoot better with it then anything else. I built the FAL from a DSA STG58 kit and that gun is a BLAST to shoot. I could spend the day plinking with it, if only I had that much ammo!!!!

I am hoping that whatever shotgun I end up with will be in the same category - down right fun to shoot!
 
I now shoot an auto but I grew up shooting pumps. I agree with dave - a well practiced pump gunner is damn fast.
If I were looking to buy a shotgun for games and self defense here would be my choices.
1. Used Ithaca 37 with the eight round tube.
2. Benelli Nova or Winchester defender
3. 870 (only because I don't shoot them as well as those above.

If I had to go auto-
1. Rem 1100
2. Customized Browning A-5
3. Petition Beretta to make a gas operated riot gun.
4. Benelli (Only because I have never shot a Benelli auto worth a darn.)
Matt
 
Said I would never own and "ugly" Glock, but dang if I don't shoot better with it then anything else.
Click to expand...

I couldn't have said it better!

Never in my life would I have been caught with a Glock.

Look at me now. Like 'em. Love 'em. Need more.


I am hoping that whatever shotgun I end up with will be in the same category - down right fun to shoot!
Click to expand...

EXACTLY!

Sometimes, we buy guns for the sake of pure shooting pleasure in mind. Shoot as many as you can, then buy the best according to your standards.

Good luck with your shopping and do let us know what you end up purchasing.

Jim
 
>> Ok, I am looking for a good multipurpose shotgun. I would like to have one that is a good home defense/tactical gun and one that I could use for shotgun side matches (at IDPA matches) and in 3 gun competitions. I don't see myself shoot skeet with it, but it could happen. <<

If you want a defense gun, some places have 'gentleman' type of rules where you won't be allowed to shoot it. If you want a dual use gun, forget the Benelli since replacement barrels are $300-ish. I use mine for side matches and shotgun-friendly pistol matches.

>> I am a cheapskate, so I would like to do this with one gun. I currently have a Winchester 1300 from the 70s that was used for Duck hunting and a little skeet shooting. It basically sits right now. <<

Hmm. have you lost interest in aerial targets? If you had no desire to blow things out of the sky, I wouldn't go the dual-use route, but that's up to you...

>> I have looked at the guns below. Cost IS an issue, but I would much rather save up for "the" gun then buy one and wish I had waited.

Remington 870 Express
Remington 870 Police (forged version of Express - anything else?)
Mossberg 590
Mossberg 590A1

Saiga (5 rnd mags - hard to seat mags )
Remington 1187
Benelli M1 Super 90 Tactical w/Pistol grip 18.5" barrel

<<

Would the Saiga be workable if you downloaded to 4 rds? I never shot one myself...The Benelli with PGS is great. That is my current setup. The length of pull is quite long so if you are short-armed or don't have much upper body strength (like me) that may be a consideration, but I find the pistol grip, while it feels clunkier, helps me keep the gun up while I reload.

Maybe you can find that Benelli used if you are worried about price.

>> REALLY like the Benelli. But the cost has me trembling (and scared of what my wife will do if I bring it home!!) Is it really worth it? Is it overkill for someone that won't shoot it that much? <<

I wouldn't consider it overkill...there are a bunch of what I'd consider overkill items you could take out of your life that would pay off the difference between that and a cheaper gun in less than a year like cable TV, frou-frou coffee, or soda....personal arms, being what they are, I think, are worth it.

>> I understand some of this (if not all) is subjective. I am asking for opinions and personal experiences, so fire away. <<

I'm not terribly recoil sensitive, but I'm not terribly strong, either. I shot it for 2 days and while my arms were hurtin' from holding the sucker up for two days, while my shoulder was red, it didn't bother me much.

One thing to consider is if you plan on putting a light and/or sidesaddle, they are hit-or-miss with light target loads.

I like mine. If you get one, skip the night sights, and put the money towards a light.

benelli.jpg
 
Ok, now I am REALLY going over the edge. I asked the local shop what it would cost for a Benelli M4 !!!!!

Am I nuts? What is gained/lost by going to the M4? Obviously you get the gas system, so probably less felt recoil. But that adds more to mess with and clean, right? Thicker barrel. Is it worth the extra money? Sounds like about $1100 or so for one.

I'm SICK I TELL YA! SICK SICK SICK. (And will be BROKE BROKE BROKE very soon!!!)

Opinions? (on the gun, not my sickness :rolleyes: )
 
StressPuppy,

Am I nuts? What is gained/lost by going to the M4? Obviously you get the gas system, so probably less felt recoil. But that adds more to mess with and clean, right? Thicker barrel. Is it worth the extra money? Sounds like about $1100 or so for one.
Click to expand...

The Benelli M4 is the mating of two short stroke pistons to the inertia system. In theory, this makes the firearm less mass sensitive as it's predecessors could become finicky when you begin attaching items.

I'd imagine that there might be a tad bit more to clean when dealing with the M4. Truth be told, it's predecessors are almost as easy to clean as most pump guns out on the market. The inertia system produces a very clean animal.

$1100 doesn't sound that bad at all. I thought they were in the $1300 ballpark.

For $1100, I'd jump on it. My next shotgun will be another Benelli, that's for sure. Heck, it MIGHT even be the M4 (I'm already shopping around for one).

I'm in agreement with Skunk.
When it comes to firearms, I don't consider spending more for something that you REALLY want overkill.

Nickels and dimes that go towards luxuries could be better spent on things that YOU want/need.

If you're more than happy with a 1300, then by all means get another.
If you have your heart set on a Benelli, then by all means buy it (if you can get that past the wife and can afford it). You'll be doing your self a disservice by selling yourself short.

Jims
 
I have an 11-87 police. After 250 rounds of break-in, I can shoot 3.25 dram loads with 1 oz shot. These are $4 box for 25. They can shoot the heavy loads too- the a$$kicker slugs and the monster mag buckshot loads because of the gas bleed-off system.
you can get one of those for @$770.00 +/-.
Note: regarding the break in sessions, the only failure was fail to eject, but after the spring in the stock got used a while, then I have about 350 rounds of the light stuff without a fail to eject. So those are gamer loads for local 3 gun. Home defense I don't mess around- all high brass serious stuff.
The new remington 1100 competition master looks good too.
so don't forget about them. Benellis usually need high brass/more expensive shells to operate them. I also heard that the cost of the Benelli auto/pump combo went down in price to 800-900 $$, if that is true then great.
just my opinion
john l.
 
Heading to the range this afternoon. Have some great friends that have let me borrow:

Benelli M3 (though I am interested in the M1)
Remington 870 Police
Saiga 12 gauge (not really interested, but should be fun)
Remington 1100 Competition Master

I am leaning heavily towards the Benelli M1, though I have even thought about an M4 if I could sell a couple of kids or something!!

I'll report back on my range session. Thanks to all for the input. If you have anything else, feel free to chime in. I am still "processing" all the input!!!
 
They are either good friends, or just wanted to stop all of my questions and shut me up!!!! :rolleyes:

I am walking on eggshells with other people's "babys". I couldn't live with myself if something happened to any of them. So I am looking forward to this afternoon, but I will be glad when I can return the guns (AND GO BY MY OWN!!!)
 
Keep in mind that it is far easier to mount a light on an M1 if you go the Benelli route, than the M3 or M4. It can be done, it just requires more brainwork and homework....
 
And I thought shooting them all would help!!!!!! :rolleyes:

I went to the range this yesterday afternoon (beautiful weather for it !!!) and took along some "hardware":

Benelli M3 (w/ pistol grip stock)
Remington 1100 Competition Master (w/ standard stock)
Remington 870 Police
Winchester 1400
Saiga

with:

PMC 7 1/2 shot, 1 1/4 oz, 3 dram (75 shells)
Winchester AA127 8 shot, 1 oz, 2 3/4 dram (25 shells)
Remington Game loads (Walmart cheapies - don't remember the specs)
Brenneke K.O. slugs
Remington Slugger slugs
...and other stuff I can't remember...

I went through well over 100 rounds, and mainly used the CM and the M3. I used the M3 in semi-auto mode only since I am thinking of getting an M1. I setup a very basic scenario/stage to run through. I ran each gun through it several times. I was using average game loads (7 1/2 shot, 3 dram). Everything cycled just fine. It took a couple of runs to get used to the guns.

I then did a stage of standing still and putting two shots on each of four targets. Next I did 5 rapid shots on one target with each gun with 00 Buck and also the AA127 light loads. Then I did slugs: 3 rapid shots on 1 IDPA target for each gun.

Ahhhhhhhh, the smell of gun powder, the spray of lead shot everywhere and the testosterone pumping as the big guns were thumping!!! No matter what I decide, it was a great day and those that loaned me guns are either truly good friends, or just plain INSANE!

The first thing I notice is what I have read in several places: Once the timer goes off, you really don't notice or feel the recoil - or at least the difference between guns. This was very true, especially the first few times. Eventually, I began to pay more attention to the muzzle movement and ability to get back on target quickly. It wasn't until I did some "stout" loads in rapid fire that I really began to notice anything. And I had been shooting for 2 1/2 to 3 hours by this point, so I could just have been tired.

But no matter what I did, I seemed to favor the Benelli. I went in leaning towards the Benelli, but tried very hard to be unbiased. I may have, however, subcontiiously been holding back when using the Remington.

I'm not sure if it was the pistol grip, or something else, but I seemed to control the Benelli better, even though the stiffer loads where much softer in the CM (again, late in the shooting, so being tired could have had something to do with it). I seemed to be better in transitions and shot splits with the Benelli. Even with the stiffer loads, I could notice the CM walking off the paper (again, could have been the PG or something else).

For rapid fire (how fast, and somewhat controlled on one target) could I empty the gun, I was able to do it on the Benelli in 1.93 seconds and 2.85 with the CM. Again, not sure if the PG helped. The light loads cycled 100% with no hitches.

I had a friend with me that has an 1100 field gun and is MUCH more versed and practiced in shooting shotguns. He ran through the same drills I did and it wasn't until the very end, rapid firing on one target that he felt for him the CM was easier to control. Up to that point, he was surprised that there wasn't a "clear winner". Again, it was late, we had shot a lot of rounds.

Between the two of us, we had two problems. I had a failure with the Remington and he had a failure with the Benelli. Since I favor the Benelli and he favors the CM, I will call them both operator errors and write them off.

Bottom line, I am still NOT sure which one I will buy. I am still leaning towards the Benelli, and some of that is "snobbish" because of the name. I like the fit and finish of the Benelli better than the CM. I am not fond of the gray furniture on the CM nor the parkerized finished. The CM is a bit softer with stout loads, but again, when the buzzer goes off, you mind is on other things!

I feel I can't go wrong with either gun. But according to what others have said, go with what you like so you don't look back. At this point, I am thinking the Benelli will find a home here! But, the next battle is whether I have the patience to find a good deal on one, or just buy a new one at the local shop. I have a feeling IMPATIENCE will win out......
 
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