Honor system (do the test before poll) thread to settle Glock grip
- Thread starter LiveLife
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What's this........an honest man on the Internet. 
NMPOPS
Member
Not all guns have that "perfect" angle of the 1911. I've been shooting mostly Glock pistols and S&W revolvers for the last 20 years. I occasionally shoot 1911 and Sigs and have never had an issue with any point wrong.
As a side note, many claim the 1911 points perfectly but some shoot with the arched mainspring housing and some with the flat. I prefer the arched because it does seem closer to a Glock.
As a side note, many claim the 1911 points perfectly but some shoot with the arched mainspring housing and some with the flat. I prefer the arched because it does seem closer to a Glock.
dondavis3
Member
My sight picture is off when I do as you ask.. with my Glock.
I do not care for the Glock Grip angle (that's why I've sold them all except for 1).
I always have to adjust my grip on a Glock to get it sighted correctly.
I do not care for the Glock Grip angle (that's why I've sold them all except for 1).
I always have to adjust my grip on a Glock to get it sighted correctly.
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Esoxchaser
Member
I tested with a myriad of handguns. The ones that pointed best for me were suprising.
Ruger Mark III Hunter
Springfield EMP
Sig P238
Sig P938
The short guns pointing so well along with that long Ruger was a bit of a suprise....
Ruger Mark III Hunter
Springfield EMP
Sig P238
Sig P938
The short guns pointing so well along with that long Ruger was a bit of a suprise....
easyg
Member
Tried the test with my G17.
And the sights were aligned and on target.
I also tried it with my Ruger SR9c.
Again, the sights were aligned and on target.
And the sights were aligned and on target.
I also tried it with my Ruger SR9c.
Again, the sights were aligned and on target.
OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
The purpose of this polled thread was to demonstrate what may happen during life-threatening close range SD/HD shooting situations in low-light conditions where fast draw/fire may have to be made without the aid of the sights.LWise said:
I went through this drill at the start of my defensive shooting training to first determine the "natural point-of-aim" with our pistols, then we had to perform all modes of shooting (fast weak hand draw, etc.) in low-light conditions (range lights were turned low and smoke was added). I suggested this to local USPSA match shooters and we set up the practice stages with the front sights of our Glocks removed to do some "point shooting" accuracy stage runs using both strong/weak hands. We learned a lot from both experiences.
At this point, I think we may have enough votes to state that even for Glock owners familiar with Glock grip angle (remember, we used the honor system?), grip angle did influence the alignment of front/rear sights for almost half of the shooters!
BTW, I can align my sights but I need to "torque" my hand/grip for Glocks and all of my non-Glock pistols point on target with both strong/weak hand draw.What that tells me is that in actual shooting situations, unsighted fire may results in POI deviation from POA. For me, simply claiming your sighted practice/training will be sufficient to compensate for this issue is not enough. I must practice/train unsighted to ensure that my POI is is same as my POA.
For those that voted their Glock sights were right on the POA/light switch, try the same drill with your weak hand and be honest with the drill - Close your eyes, draw/point at the light switch fast "using natural hand grip" you may use under stress/panic and HOLD your hand/grip and check your sights. If the result is different than how you voted, you don't have to tell us, but do incorporate this realization into your training.
If you want verification, try the same drill on your next range trip with a single dot Center-of-Mass (COM) on the target at 3-5 yards and repeat with both strong and weak hands. Let us know how it goes and BE HONEST!
For me accuracy is everything and holes on target speak volumes.
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Ok, some other people have tried to explain this, already. But I'll give it another go, BDS.
To us, you're doing it wrong.
When we can't see the sights (too dark or front sight removed), we do not continue to shove the back of the gun to our eyeline as if it still matters, just so we can not only fire blindly, but obscure half our vision while firing blindly.
What we do is lower the gun slightly, keeping the gun in our near peripheral vision, while keeping the POA on target. This elevates the muzzle of the gun in relation to the grip. You see the front sight higher than the rear sight, AND the gun is still pointed exactly right. This is how the Glock is biased from the beginning. So it's actually a very natural grip angle for low light situations and point shooting for some of us.
If I were asked to point a Glock at a light switch with my eyes closed, I would make no attempt to bring the sights in alignment with my eyes. I would be quasi-point shooting with an elevated front sight, gun and sights below my direct line of vision. If I now am allowed to actually aim, I lower my head, raise my arms, and flatten my wrist as necessary. Gun is always pointed where it's supposed to.
So ok. You might argue that when actually using the sights in good lighting, that extra motion will delay your shot. I disagree. When you bring a "naturally pointing" gun to your eye and the sights are lined up perfect, but not exactly perfect, your front sight can now be totally hidden by the rear sight, slowing your first shot. When time counts, I start off with the afore-described modified sight picture. If the shot needs to break at that point in time, that's how I'll do it. If I have time and need to aim more precisely, then I will. But shooting from 21 feet from the holster in timed drills, I have no problem keeping all the shots on a paper plate without using a traditional sight picture.
To us, you're doing it wrong.
When we can't see the sights (too dark or front sight removed), we do not continue to shove the back of the gun to our eyeline as if it still matters, just so we can not only fire blindly, but obscure half our vision while firing blindly.
What we do is lower the gun slightly, keeping the gun in our near peripheral vision, while keeping the POA on target. This elevates the muzzle of the gun in relation to the grip. You see the front sight higher than the rear sight, AND the gun is still pointed exactly right. This is how the Glock is biased from the beginning. So it's actually a very natural grip angle for low light situations and point shooting for some of us.
If I were asked to point a Glock at a light switch with my eyes closed, I would make no attempt to bring the sights in alignment with my eyes. I would be quasi-point shooting with an elevated front sight, gun and sights below my direct line of vision. If I now am allowed to actually aim, I lower my head, raise my arms, and flatten my wrist as necessary. Gun is always pointed where it's supposed to.
So ok. You might argue that when actually using the sights in good lighting, that extra motion will delay your shot. I disagree. When you bring a "naturally pointing" gun to your eye and the sights are lined up perfect, but not exactly perfect, your front sight can now be totally hidden by the rear sight, slowing your first shot. When time counts, I start off with the afore-described modified sight picture. If the shot needs to break at that point in time, that's how I'll do it. If I have time and need to aim more precisely, then I will. But shooting from 21 feet from the holster in timed drills, I have no problem keeping all the shots on a paper plate without using a traditional sight picture.
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OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
Gloob, I agree with you.
When I initially started this thread, it was intended to show Glock owners what their Glock sights actually did. I have been contemplating about the issue you posted and started another poll thread to range test this thread's intent - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=673580
Holes on target speak volumes.
When I initially started this thread, it was intended to show Glock owners what their Glock sights actually did. I have been contemplating about the issue you posted and started another poll thread to range test this thread's intent - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=673580
Holes on target speak volumes.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
If you use the sights, it points where you aim it.
Glock Grip Angle Origin
Way back when (Mid 1980's) a group showed up at the FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) firing range. They wanted to show us a newly designed pistol. Mr. Glock was present along with interpreters, et al.
We checked it out (dry fire) and asked several questions of Mr. Gaston Glock.
1) We found the grip angle "different" and asked why that particular grip angle was chosen?
They showed us a photo of Austrian soldiers lined up behind several tables (four I think) with a silhouette target down range of each table. They explained that on each table was a 9mm Glock with a different grip angle and each soldier was to fire each gun at the target down range. The target was not changed, but reflected the composite accuracy of each gun after being fired at by all the soldiers. The winning grip angle was chosen according to which target had the best group after all the shooting was completed. Here's the interesting part, the soldiers were shooting strong hand only, bullseye style.
2) We didn't like the .160" front sight and the .130" rear sight widths and asked if they could be reversed. Mr. Glock said, "No."
3) They mentioned a 3.5# trigger and we asked if that could be ordered. Mr. Glock said, "No."
When asked why he said, "In Europe if someone shoots himself it's their problem. In American it's my problem, everyone here sues."
Now you have "The rest of the story."
Way back when (Mid 1980's) a group showed up at the FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) firing range. They wanted to show us a newly designed pistol. Mr. Glock was present along with interpreters, et al.
We checked it out (dry fire) and asked several questions of Mr. Gaston Glock.
1) We found the grip angle "different" and asked why that particular grip angle was chosen?
They showed us a photo of Austrian soldiers lined up behind several tables (four I think) with a silhouette target down range of each table. They explained that on each table was a 9mm Glock with a different grip angle and each soldier was to fire each gun at the target down range. The target was not changed, but reflected the composite accuracy of each gun after being fired at by all the soldiers. The winning grip angle was chosen according to which target had the best group after all the shooting was completed. Here's the interesting part, the soldiers were shooting strong hand only, bullseye style.
2) We didn't like the .160" front sight and the .130" rear sight widths and asked if they could be reversed. Mr. Glock said, "No."
3) They mentioned a 3.5# trigger and we asked if that could be ordered. Mr. Glock said, "No."
When asked why he said, "In Europe if someone shoots himself it's their problem. In American it's my problem, everyone here sues."
Now you have "The rest of the story."
David E
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Then the 3.5 Gen SF should point well for you, also.
Deaf Smith
Member
My carry sub-compact Glocks alway point on for me but there is a reason for that.
Leaned long time about about indexing ones body to make the weapon index on the target WITHOUT seeing the sights (helps with flash sight picture.)
I just step my left foot just a bit forward and use a Isosceles hold, thumbs down, left hand cocked a bit when drawing. Gives me a dead on sight picture as soon as I reach full extension.
Deaf
Leaned long time about about indexing ones body to make the weapon index on the target WITHOUT seeing the sights (helps with flash sight picture.)
I just step my left foot just a bit forward and use a Isosceles hold, thumbs down, left hand cocked a bit when drawing. Gives me a dead on sight picture as soon as I reach full extension.
Deaf
1911 guy
Member
I don't own a Glock and didn't vote in the poll. I also don't like the grip angle.
HOWEVER:
When taking a friend to choose his first handgun, I explained gun fit to him. He understood it. I also explained the "pick a spot on the wall" drill He did it. He bought a Glock because it fit him well.
Everybodys' hands are shaped differntly and are different sizes. Some people find the Glock grip angle very comfortable. More power to them. Even those who find it uncomfortable but are required to use the pistol can adapt to it readily. I don't care for the width of the M9 but was able to use one fairly well because I had to use it repeatedly and qualify with it.
Glock makes a mechanically sound pistol. I wouldn't choose it for myself, but I won't knock people who do.
HOWEVER:
When taking a friend to choose his first handgun, I explained gun fit to him. He understood it. I also explained the "pick a spot on the wall" drill He did it. He bought a Glock because it fit him well.
Everybodys' hands are shaped differntly and are different sizes. Some people find the Glock grip angle very comfortable. More power to them. Even those who find it uncomfortable but are required to use the pistol can adapt to it readily. I don't care for the width of the M9 but was able to use one fairly well because I had to use it repeatedly and qualify with it.
Glock makes a mechanically sound pistol. I wouldn't choose it for myself, but I won't knock people who do.
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