Hornady Powder Measure Inconsistency (Frustation)

[NoahFN]

I have a Hornady lock & load powder measure that I cannot get consistent powder drops out of.

Here's what I've tried.
- Different powders, mostly I've been using W231 as I've heard that it meters well
- Added the handgun micrometer measuring insert
- Added a powder baffle
- Working the handle in the same manner each time
- Dryer sheets to remove static

Tonight I worked with it and tried to get 5.3 grains of W231 for some .45acp loads. It would get it adjusted to 5.25 grains and eventually it would creep up to 5.4 grains. I'd adjust it down again and it would creep back up, even after adding powder to try to keep a consistent amount in the hopper.

Does anyone have any tips, suggestions? I expect a certain amount of variance but the constant creeping increase is driving me crazy.

 

[WayneConrad]

I have no idea; just random thoughts.

Is it possible that it is your scale that is drifting, and not your measure?

Do you run 10 or 20 through the scale before you start weighing charges? It takes a few throws for my RCBS Uniflow to settle down after I first put powder in it.

 

[LHB1]

Noah,
Just a long shot but have you inserted the metering unit properly where it is retained by the powder measure AND also tightened the lock ring, screw, etc. on the metering stem itself? The release button on side of rotor locks the metering unit into the PM and I think there is a screw in the end of the micrometer insert that adjusts tension to prevent just the situation you are describing. Don't ask me how I know both these problems can happen.


Good shooting and be safe.
LB

 

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I have a Hornady lock & load powder measure that I cannot get consistent powder drops out of.

"Here's what I've tried.
- Different powders, mostly I've been using W231 as I've heard that it meters well"

It meters beautifully from my Lock N Load powder measure. Is yours the Lock and Load measure? If so, I use the rifle measure to meter large pistol and the pistol meter to meter small pistol. I can't remember why I did that, but it works extremely well this way and accurately. I have loaded a small ton of .45ACP using W231 with great success. Typically, when checking it on the AP, I get practically zero variance with that powder. I'm using the case activated powder drop and a Redding Scale.

"- Added the handgun micrometer measuring insert"

See above. I think I'd try the rifle insert.

"- Added a powder baffle"

I've used mine stuffed to the gills with powder and never needed one.

"- Working the handle in the same manner each time"

I do this with my Redding 3BR measure. Doing this generally helps a good bit with that measure. Can't say about the LnL though.
- Dryer sheets to remove static

"Tonight I worked with it and tried to get 5.3 grains of W231 for some .45acp loads. It would get it adjusted to 5.25 grains and eventually it would creep up to 5.4 grains. I'd adjust it down again and it would creep back up, even after adding powder to try to keep a consistent amount in the hopper."

I wish I knew what's causing this, but I've never had any problems out of my measure I can remember.

"Does anyone have any tips, suggestions? I expect a certain amount of variance but the constant creeping increase is driving me crazy."

I think I would give a call to Hornady Technical support along with following the suggestions LHB1 suggested. I can assure you, if your measure is a Lock N Load measure, you absolutely shouldn't be having any variance worth noting. I even get .1 grain variance or less with extruded powders.

Sorry I can't help, but at least feedback related to what you're doing might help.

Regards,

Dave

 

[rnovi]

It would get it adjusted to 5.25 grains and eventually it would creep up to 5.4 grains.

It really sounds like the micrometer adjustment is loose. I have an older Hornady powder measure and it has an allen-head lock-screw on the micrometer dial. If I don't lock it down it does tend to migrate.

Another thought: is there any kind of outside vibration that might cause "powder packing"?

 

[Canuck-IL]

Besides checking that the insert is secured as per above suggestions, have you thoroughly cleaned the powder drop, case sleeve and powder tube base of the packing grease that they ship in? A very thin layer is absolutely everywhere when shipped...any residue would cause clumping and screw with the consistency.

Trying the rifle insert just to check consistency might be worthwhile...while it's too coarse for easy use with pistol case loads, if it drops consistently then you''l know it's the micrometer insert causing the issue. My L'n'L is under .1 ES over 200 cases (BE, V310 and TG - not so good with Clays).
/Bryan

 

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Bryan,

Just out of curiousity, have you tried using the rifle micrometer with W231 loading for .45ACP? The reason I'm asking is for some reason I chose to load that particular cartridge with the rifle micrometer and can't remember why to save my life. I found it worked really well for that cartridge and have just used it ever since.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Steve C]

I've got 2 of the Hornady powder measures, one on my LNL auto and one for use when loading on the single stage. I find that its sometimes dificult to get the measuring insert installed correctly, the fit is very tight but once you find the right orientation and get it locked in I've had very consistant charges with every type of powder I use. Right now I'm loading 5.6grs of W231 behind 230gr RN FMJ's in the .45 acp on the LNL auto. I usually pull about every 10th round to get a weight check and the variation is less than 1/10grain. BTW a powder scale only has a 1/10th grain accuracy and it's perfectly acceptable to be +/- 1/10th in your throws regardless of the brand of measure. Even when loading with Unique I've found the charges are still within the 1/10th grain accuracy level. I've used one of the Hornady's to measure Unique, W231, 2400, AA#9, H110, Blue Dot, Tightgroup and Trail Boss and have no complaints regarding the measures consistency of charge weights. Check out the things the earlier posters mentioned. There's no reason you shouldn't be getting uniform metering within the normal parameters of variation due to factors mostly out of our control.

 

[Canuck-IL]

Dave
Nope, never used 231 - started with BE and was loading three different loads (1 IPSC major and 2 different Bullseye guns)...got frustrated with the coarseness of the rifle insert's adjustments. Once I got the pistol micrometer, that's all I've used. Tried BE, V310, TG, Ba-10 and a little WST...all are very consistent....only the somewhat flakier Clays gives me the occ. undercharge, probably would be OK w a baffle.

BTW, these old eyes find reading the micrometer damn near impossible...I just measure the barrel to thimble gap with calipers and record that setting...gets me almost right on everytime.

/Bryan

 

[NoahFN]

Thanks for all of the tips guys.

In response to some of the questions posted:
It is indeed the lock & load version and is fairly new, I'd say less than 6 months old.

Last night before I turned in I took apart the metering assembly and cleaned/degreased the whole thing. When I reassembled it I made sure everything was tight and the screw at the end of the micrometer I couldn't make any tighter so I don't think it's backing out on me.

I'll give it another try tonight and see if there is any improvement and let you guys know how it goes. Failing any improvement I'll go ahead and give Hornady a call and see what they say.

I've kept my powder stored in a sealed container, but is it possible that it's gotten sticky with humidity? It sounds like everyone else is having good success with their Hornady Lock and Loads.

 

[30Cal]

When you set the measure, if you're not working the press close to how you would in production, then you're not going to get the same results. For example, if you do charge-charge-charge and aren't sizing, seating, etc, then when you do start to size and seat, the weight of the powder charge dropped is going to shift.

It's not going to throw 5.3grs all day long. There isn't a volumetric powdermeasure that will. And it is going to shift as the amount of powder in the hopper changes. Heck, 0.1grs variation is still stellar. A tenth of a grain won't make a difference and 0.3grs is almost impossible to see on paper.

Make sure you don't have a breeze blowing across your scale.

 

[NoahFN]

It's not going to throw 5.3grs all day long. There isn't a volumetric powdermeasure that will. And it is going to shift as the amount of powder in the hopper changes. Heck, 0.1grs variation is still stellar. A tenth of a grain won't make a difference and 0.3grs is almost impossible to see on paper.

30Cal, as I said in my original post, I expect some variance, however, a consant increase in powder is unacceptable to me. I also have been keeping the powder level constant in the hopper.

I charge all of my cases before I seat/crimp so I am working the handle rather consistantly and there isn't any vibration on the table.

I will check for breezes in the room around the scale, but every time I check the scale it comes out correctly.

 

[30Cal]

Here's what I come up with when I list all the possible causes of a shift:
1. The adjustment is walking. it's probably got some amount of lash/slack to it--maybe you need to come to a stop from the other direction?
2. The measure is getting dirty--maybe all the teardown and cleaning has been counterproductive and it just needs to settle?
3. The density of the powder is going down--my Dillon measure has a sweet spot between full and 3/4 full--outside of that band and I have to tweak it.

4. Are you getting the 100% full range of throw? On a Dillon, you set the throw by adjusting the height of the powder die. If you stop at 95% (where it looks like the shuttle bar is moving as far as it needs to) instead of setting the measure all the way out at the stops, the charges won't come out very uniformly (in fact, the charge weight will be highly sensitive to the case length).

I'd be curious if your initial micrometer setting is the same from one day to the next.

 

[Dave P]

I am wondering about the accuracy of your measurements.

It looks like your scale is accurate to .05 grains based on "5.25" measurement. Is this true? This is a mechanical balance and not an electronic scale?

When it creeps up to 5.4 - does it stay there?

 

[1911user]

I would throw 5-10 charges of powder after each change and put it back in the hopper. On my measures, it takes a few cycles to get the weight consistent again. When adjusting the charge weight, I like to first throw 5 charges back into the hopper to settle the measure then throw another 5 when I get close to the desired weight (divide total weight by 5). That should help set the average weight better. Use the pistol insert if possible; it should be more consistent and smaller adjustment steps. Keep the baffle, they keep the amount of powder in the hopper from having a big effect on charge weight. Random vibration of the table will definitely affect consistency; the powder will pack, the idea is to have it pack the same amount each time. Just be consistent for best results.

 

[bobaloo]

I've noticed the same thing with some flake powders, under certain circumstances. If I fill the hopper from empty with some powders and set the charge, it will gradually increase slowly as I load. My guess is that the powder is gradually settling and becoming more dense. After a short while it settles down and stays constant.

On the other hand, with ball powders, I don't see the slightest bit of variation. I loaded 1,000 rounds of .223 over the weekend using 2230C. I set it at 25.2 grains, loaded 500, checked the charge, it was 25.2 grains, loaded another 500, checked again, 25.2 grains.

Powders like Blue Dot with fairly large flakes have been the worst offenders for me. One way to avoid it is to fill the hopper and tap it a few times, let it set for a little while, then throw 10 or 20 charges and dump them, then start loading.

 

[Grump]

I've tried three different scales and every one reads a little bit lighter for a single charge than for a group of 5 or 10. Or is it heavier?

Aw heck.

Anyway, the behavior you describe, if based on the same 5-throw average, indicates either increased vibration-settling, or mechanical drift, or temperature drift (unlikely, but if temps are going up 20 degrees in a cold garage you heat only when occupied.... ), or some reverse stratification of powder density in the hopper. Sounds like you've nailed down the possibility of adjustments drifting.

Is there any chance that your cases are getting the flash hole filled with powder from earlier charges and then getting dumped when you weigh them? It would require you using different, previously-charged and emptied cases...using one case for all throws could "bump" the charge by only one tiny flashhole-load.

 

[NoahFN]

I had a more detailed reply typed up, and then we lost power. So here is a quick version:

I have narrowed down my problems (I think) to 2 causes.
1) Not allowing enough time for my electronic scale to warm up.
2) Not "Priming" the powder measure (not throwing any charges before I start weighing.

Last night, after resolving both of these issues by letting my scale warm up for half an hour and throwing 10 - 15 charges after each adjustment I wieghed 30 charges with these results:

3 throws of 5.20 grains
7 throws of 5.25 grains
16 throws of 5.3 grains
4 throws of 5.35 grains

Total = 30 throws, Average of 5.285 grains per throw

Is this on par with the results you guys are getting?

 

[WayneConrad]

Cool. Progress.

I'm making the assumption that the Hornady powder measure operates pretty much the same as the RCBS measure. I'm pretty sure that they differ only in the details. If so, you should only need to throw some number (5, 10, 20... experiment to find out) for the measure to settle down after you fill it with powder.

I also throw and dump a few charges at the start of a session even if there was already powder in the measure. That's because vibration over time can pack the powder down a bit. I have a powder baffle, but after a few days, especially if I've been using my bench for other things, there will be a bit more powder under the baffle just from vibration.

After it's settled down, when you change the setting, you need to throw just one charge and dump it back in the hopper. You can then measure the next charge. That is, changing the setting only messes up the very next throw. If changing to a higher weight, the next throw will be light since more powder packs into the cylinder when it falls in than when the cylinder volume is slowly increased. If changing to a lower weight, the next throw will be heavy since decreasing the volume of a full cylinder packs the powder in a bit more than just letting the powder fall into the cylinder.

That's how it works for me, anyhow. Your mileage will vary. This offer not valid in some states.

I'm not sure how to read your table of weights. Does it mean that you threw four, and the average of those four was 5.20, and then you threw seven, and the average of those seven was 5.25, and so on? Please pardon my density.

 

[1911user]

+/- 0.1 gr seems reasonable. Just be consistent with the throw motion. If you are loading for a match and a throw just doesn't feel right, put it back in the hopper and do it again; maybe a powder grain got caught. At least you won't have to wonder about it.

One thing I like about loading on a progressive press is I think the even motion/vibration of the loading cycle tends to pack the powder fairly consistently which should really reduce the light charges. I use W231 and the charge weights seem to stay within a 0.1 grain range, but that's with a mechanical scale and I'm mostly making sure the powder bar adjustment hasn't changed. I'm the weak-link for accuracy with my pistol ammo; the measure is far more consistent than I normally shoot. Factories load with volume measures even for match grade ammo.

 

[NoahFN]

I modified my data so it is more readable, and calculated and average of 5.285 grains per throw over 30 throws, which is close to my desired throw of 5.3. I'm more concerned with consistancy than I am average weight though.

WayneConrad, I'll try just throwing one charge back in the happer after the adjustment rather than several and see if I get similiar results. That is if your offer is valid in Ohio.

 

[robctwo]

I've got over 19,000 rounds through my LnL. I use the Hornady electronic scale as well. I like the pistol micrometer. When changing powders/charges it usually takes 5-10 throws to get me satisfied. I put a 2" block under the base to short out the auto index. Then I can run one case through time after time to set up correctly. I weigh the case, dump powder, weigh the charge, empty the case, weigh the case.....

I have had trouble with build up in the drop tube. Condensation, lube, old age... I'm not sure of the exact cause.

I find that spot checking every 30 to 50 rounds is sufficient. Usually when I empty the collection box is a good time to verify the charge. Consistent powder drops was one of the things that sold me on the Hornady.

I also never run at the stated max loads so that if I do inadvertantly get an additional tenth of a grain I'm not at any risk.

 

[WayneConrad]

Your standard deviation is 0.04, which means that 68% of your throws are within 0.04 of the mean, and 95% of your throws are within 0.08 of the mean. A tenth of a grain either way is all I ever ask for. Also, your median of 5.3 is very close to your mean of 5.285. I'm no statistician (don't even play one on TV), but I think that means that there are about the same number throws lower than the mean than there are higher than the mean. That's also good.

Oh, and yes, offer valid in Ohio

 

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Wayne,

My buddy has the RCBS and I own the Hornady, so I've been able to use both. They're so similar it's like they were "born" of the same high quality stock mother. Slightly different in appearance and mechanics, they are both excellent powder measures. If I ever have a chance to pick up either one as an extra on the cheap at a gunshow, I'll jump on it like a hen on a junebug.

Noah,

It sounds like your measuring issue is solved. After reading this post, I'm thinking there are times when owning a beam measure is much more satisfying, albiet a bit less accurate. I'm glad to see the measure is in specification. Congratulations on getting the issue resolved.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Canuck-IL]

I like the pistol micrometer. When changing powders/charges it usually takes 5-10 throws to get me satisfied. I put a 2" block under the base to short out the auto index. Then I can run one case through time after time to set up correctly. I weigh the case, dump powder, weigh the charge, empty the case, weigh the case.....

I'm a little less compulsive yet the L'n'L gives me great consistency. After an adjustment of the drop, I unhook the return spring and manually drop three loads which go back in the hopper. To test the new setting I again manually drop 5, 1 at a time, into a little plastic cup (after wiping w anti-static cloth) that is dumped into the hopper that remains sitting on the electronic scale. I adjust until the mean of the five is the load I want and none of the 5 loads varied by more than .1 - the L'n'L will then hold that measure indefinitely at least with the powders I listed above.

Seems to work fine as long as the insert is adjusted to travel through its full arc of movement....and you remember to stick the return spring back on afterward!
/Bryan