Hot 10mm or smoking .460 Rowland?

[Snowdog]

It's been a while since I've posted as I already know just about everything and have little need for assistance rofl.

Here's the situation: Bear sightings where I live in WNC have risen exponentially. Where it used to be rare enough to record on your phone, it's now something we're seeing every other day. They are far less timid than they used to be and on occasion challenge folks walking their dogs or doing yard work.

I don't hunt bear, but I did purchase a RIA 10mm last year when sightings picked up. My wife purchased something that I had forgotten I'd asked for as a birthday gift, an XDm 5.25 and a Rowland conversion kit for it.

So now I have both a 10mm and a .460 Rowland serving the same role.

So here's the question: If you were walking your dog or performing yard work near large wooded areas where large black bear are seen often, multiple times a day on occasion, which would you choose?

The 10mm has 3 Tripp Research 9 round magazines.

The .460 Rowland has three 13-round magazines, reduced to a capacity of 11 with the stronger spring to compensate for the additional slide velocity (without it the pistol will sometimes fail to strip the next cartridge from the magazine).

Below are the rounds I have on hand, about 200 or so of each. All work flawlessly from these 2 pistols.

10mm Underwood 140gr Extreme Penetrators - Listed at 1500 FPS/ 700 ft/lbs
10mm Underwood 200gr XTP - 1250 FPS/694 ft/lbs
TNoutdoors9 found these averaged 1261 FPS from a G20, so the numbers are likely not exaggerated.

.460 Rowland Underwood 200gr Extreme Penetrators - Listed at 1400 FPS / 870 ft/lbs
.460 Rowland Johnny's 240gr Magnum XTP - Listed at 1350 FPS / 957 ft/lbs


I shoot both about as well as the other and would carry either in a Kydex/leather IWB. Both carry about the same, with the XDm being longer (due to the required compensator).
Neither had yet to malfunction in any concerning way lately.

The RIA 10mm did have an issue with the slide locking back with rounds still in the magazine when using hot Underwood loads. A flat bottom firing pin stop, replaced recoil and mainspring eliminated that.

The XDm 5.25 with Rowland conversion had heavier magazine springs installed, making the pistol perfectly reliable but stripping 2 rounds (1 if the last round is really crammed in there) from the capacity.

So, between these, which would you choose? and for goodness sake do not suggest a shotgun

 

[RPRNY]

I would choose the XDm because with the compensator on it, it looks like something that would have been used, effectively, in the original Alien film. Joking aside, I am normally a traditionalist and tactikewlophobe but that XDm Rowland conversion is just plain cool. More importantly, I like 240 grs at 1350 fps a lot. As I understand it, not only do you folks have a lot of bears, you've got some of the biggest black bears in the country. So my vote is bigger holes and more weight.

Of course the other option is to carry a .22 revolver and never go out alone, but many frown on that strategy.

 

[Snowdog]

Thanks RPRNY, that's the direction I'm leaning towards.

It does look like something Ripley could work with.

 

[LoonWulf]

Im launching those 240s from my cobbled together .45SUPER Xd at about 1100fps, at that velocity they dont expand much from what ive seen. I also use them in my muzzle loader at 1900fps and they dont expand alot in light med game. I havent done any expansion test in media and tho.
They do penetrate quite well, shot clean thru an axis deer quartering towards me at a little over 100yds.

For bear im guessing penetration out weighs expansion so that may work exactly like you want.

 

[bannockburn]

Snowdog

I would probably go with the RIA as I prefer the 1911 platform to that of the XDm. Either gun should get the job done with the way you have them both tuned up for and ready to go.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Whichever is 100% reliable.

Or, if you want a reason to buy a new pistol think about a Glock 20, 15rds of 10mm on tap there. Long slide version would get you more velocity also.

 

[Demi-human]

The Four sixty Rowland is very alluring. Especially in a lighter weight platform. Eleven, half inch holes that go through and through ought to be plenty good. Both are very good choices and I would love the difficult decision of which to wear out to the back field.
Since the bears are larger there, than here, I would go for the heavier weight bullets. Humans may stop from pain or fear, animals always play as if it were life and death. Make sure that equation ends in your favor.


A side question, where are you gentlemen finding these awesome women? A request for a unique and specific item, that she remembered, and a firearm for a birthday present?!?

You, Sir, are a very lucky man!

 

[CDW4ME]

It's been a while since I've posted as I already know just about everything and have little need for assistance rofl.

10mm Underwood 140gr Extreme Penetrators - Listed at 1500 FPS/ 700 ft/lbs
10mm Underwood 200gr XTP - 1250 FPS/694 ft/lbs
TNoutdoors9 found these averaged 1261 FPS from a G20, so the numbers are likely not exaggerated.

.460 Rowland Underwood 200gr Extreme Penetrators - Listed at 1400 FPS / 870 ft/lbs
.460 Rowland Johnny's 240gr Magnum XTP - Listed at 1350 FPS / 957 ft/lbs

and for goodness sake do not suggest a shotgun

When you know everything, you're supposed to post more and share your enlightenment & knowledge with others.
Whichever you choose, I suggest a chronograph, that way you know for sure what the velocity is.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Pretty sure either one is plenty potent even for a big black bear. I'd base my decision on which gun is the most reliable and which you shoot the best.

If they are equal in that regard it's a flavor of the day situation.

 

[expat_alaska]

I lived in Alaska for 34 years before my retirement in 2007, wherein I moved to WA State.

I used to fish the Kenai River and various rivers/streams in the Matanuska-Susitna Valleys for salmon/rainbows/dollies and encountered Brown/Grizzly and Black bears often. Most of the full-grown blacks were about 500-600 lbs., and if they were hungry and had little natural food, blacks would stalk humans. There are many Alaska newspaper archived articles concerning this.

Back then I carried a Ruger Super Blackhawk 3-screw .44 Mag (hammer down on an empty chamber) with hot reloads using H-110 under a Speer 240 grain SWC softpoint (using the old Speer #9 reloading book) in a Bianchi shoulder holster. I considered that as a minimum for bear protection, insofar as firearms are concerned.

Back in the day...

I would have rather used my Rem 870 loaded with BRI 240 grain saboted solid lead slugs, but we kept it at camp for night protection.

I just shudder at you folks that want a semi-auto pistol for bear defense. I guess a 10mm or a .460 Rowland is better than nothing, but I would not count on penetration and expansion from those rounds on a bear.

One more thing: black bears are known to harbor trichina worms, like a hog might. If you do harvest a black bear and have it butchered, just make sure when you cook it on the grill (like pork) it is well done. The meat is usually very fatty and it tastes fantastic as long as the bear has not been feasting on salmon, and only on roots, berries, and other upland foods. This will kill any trichina and assure you of a good meal with no chance of trichinosis, which is a very painful and deadly disease.

I have not had bear meat in over 30 years and I miss it. Sorry to digress.

Just my $.02 worth

 

[CraigC]

Either will do the job, with the right bullet. Be careful not to be too enamored of light bullets at high velocity. Heavier bullets will be more consistent and get it done with boring regularity. I would be torn because I thoroughly enjoy a good 1911 and the trigger is superior to anything possible with a striker fired auto but I am also very much a fan of the XD line of pistols and now own four of them. I would probably use whichever was the most accurate both off the bench and my hind legs.

 

[Snowdog]

Well, I'm still on the fence but perhaps I can do one or the other depending on the day. If it's just me and the dog, I'll bring the 1911 as it does fit me better.
If my wife and daughter are in tow, I will bring the higher capacity XDm with its hotter .460 Rowland round.

Sounds logical, right?

Right?

I don't do logical well

I know the Extreme Penetrators do just what the name suggests and penetrate... extreme...ly. I'll just use those for the 10mm.

I like the 240gr XTP offered by Rowland. They've been accurate enough and reliable from my XDm. My concerns are that the original .452 XTP was swaged down to .451 and I've read this can lead to jacket separation should the bullet expand. The other concern, which I know I shouldn't really concern myself with, is the published velocity.
I know Underwood is good on their numbers. If they say their 357 Sig 125gr Gold Dot does 1475 fps, you'll get that from your 3.5" M&Pc and around 1600 FPS from a longer barrel.

I can't find any real-world chronograph tests for Rowland's 240gr load yet. I don't know if they get the claimed 1350 FPS or if it's 1150 FPS (it does seem to be a punchy load though).
At least with Underwood's 200gr Extreme Penetrator loads, I should easily get the advertised 1400 FPS or more from the XDm's 5.25" barrel as Underwood doesn't fudge their numbers like some of the other boutique loaders.

Demi-human, this is the second firearm my wife has presented me for a birthday. She saw me drooling over a Pedersoli Harper's Ferry flintlock online one day and the next thing I know, I have one gift-wrapped for me. The best thing about this is that she was a raging anti-gun leftist from Garden City NY before we met. What a great influence I've been!

 

[jmr40]

Load the 200 gr bullets in the 10mm and don't look back. Never used the Underwood ammo, but DoubleTap 200 gr hardcast chronographed 1315 fps from my G20. Buffalo Bore makes some too. Any hardcast 200 gr bullet at around 1200 fps or more is enough.

The main reason I'd choose 10mm over the 460 is because a 200 gr 10mm bullet will out penetrate a 200 gr 45 caliber bullet by a wide margin.

 

[jmr40]

I just shudder at you folks that want a semi-auto pistol for bear defense. I guess a 10mm or a .460 Rowland is better than nothing, but I would not count on penetration and expansion from those rounds on a bear.

Things have changed quite a bit since you left Alaska 10 years ago. The G20 is fast becoming the preferred handgun for bear defense with several successful shootings. Real world performance is about the same as the 240 gr 44 mag load you used.

Some guys are finding the better 9mm loads to be enough. Scroll down for the story.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388

 

[Demi-human]

...this is the second firearm my wife has presented me for a birthday. The best thing about this is that she was a raging anti-gun leftist from Garden City NY before we met.

That is amazing! I wish you a long and obviously very happy life with your family. Well done!

Upon a second consideration I would choose the Rowland. Heavier and faster will beat out the very slight difference in sectional density numbers. But I may be biased by my endearment for fourty five caliber anything.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I'm sure the 9mm could also work but wouldn't be my choice. People have stopped Grizzlies with a Buck 110 also but not ideal.

.44 and 10mm would be my options.

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

I would feel okay with either one, but I would stick with hardcast bullets, like DoubleTap's 200 gr. WFNGC or Buffalo Bore's 220 gr. FN in 10mm or Buffalo Bore's 255 gr. FN in .460 Rowland

Sam