How about a federal permit to purchase?

[Lex Luthier]

I have noticed also the permit to purchase request on armslist et al. I love Minnesota, but it sure gets a little weird sometimes.

 

[Resist Evil]

How about no more permits to exercise rights?

How about no more compromise in the contest between Liberty and government? As we've seen, compromising Liberty invites tyranny. Is Liberty now of such meager value that bargaining it away one permit at a time is somehow moral and good?

The only legitimate permit that exists between the government and the citizenry is the Constitution of the United States. The government gets its permit from us, not the other way around. Violation of that permit should lead swiftly to the gibbet in the public square.

So, please stop with the permit/licensing suggestions in the vain attempt to please Leviathan and the soulless rabble supporting it.

Better we should be suggesting ways to tell the monster to "jus' git in the truck and don't touch nuthin'," don't you think?

 

[Deanimator]

We need FEWER gun laws, not MORE.

You can no more compromise with anti-gunners than Anne Frank could compromise with Adolf Eichmann.

 

[Nickel Plated]

How about NOOOO.

We have a purchase permit here in NYC. Read up on it. You would be shocked that something like this can even exist in the United States. Many people are when they first hear of it.

Sure you can make the standard for getting your permit lower than NYC's so it's not such a pain in the ass. But once they get you to agree to a permit, they can get you to agree to tighter rules for getting and keeping it.

no permits. They're useless, unconstitutional, wrong, and a total waste of money. To the extent that I'm perfectly willing to drive 3 hours (one way mind you) to PA to buy my guns just so I don't have to deal with the permit.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

" I just had this idea, and maybe it's got a major flaw that I don't see yet, but here goes --

In my home state of Minnesota, we've had for a lot of years a "Permit to Purchase" law that requires would-be handgun buyers to present the permit (issued by the local sheriff) when buying from FFLs. A few private sellers have been known to want to see the P2P, as well. It's been a bother, but not really an intrusion, since no records have to be kept of sales other than the ones that FFLs already keep.

My suggestion: A federal P2P. So, anyone who has one of these has been run through the NICS check. Private sellers would have to ask see the P2P, but would not be required to file any papers or take any other steps.

And here's the kicker: A higher level of the same permit would become a carry permit good in all 50 states. "







Really. What part of the Bill of Rights don't you understand. We are talking RIGHT'S here. Do you not understand the concept?

 

[Dmath]

Look, I am not a troll. I am a real, actual person, a many-gun owner and a gun-rights advocate who is burdened with a sense that we are not going to emerge from this with any improvement in our present situation. It will get worse.

With some luck, and God's grace, the net result of what's currently going on in Congress will be no more gun laws.

That won't happen, I fear.

As I wrote above, look around you -- tens of thousands of gun laws on the books, and none of them are going away. My concern is that we are going to get another federal law, something as stupid as the "Assault Weapons" ban of 1994, and it will be worse. This time it will be some sort of background-check stupidity. And this one won't have a sunset, unlike the 1994 law.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong and when Congress is done, we'll all be running through the sunlit uplands calling to one another, waving our 30-round magazines and weeping with joy because at last all of the gun laws have been rescinded. Yay!

 

[bigfatdave]

Your fears may be justified
The solution is not more compromise

NY made a compromise and kept their AWB when the federal AWB expired, it just got worse. Maybe next year they can compromise to 5 round magazines and mental health screenings to get a FOID.

Did you read the LawDog link I posted? Do you not understand that compromising now doesn't prevent further attacks later? Do you not understand how many compromises have been made since 1934?

 

[Vector]

already have one. Its called "the 2nd ammendment".

+1

`

 

[Midwest]

I was reading the March 2 1966 legislative hearings for the then proposed New Jersey Firearms ID card.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-_3nzDGTebjblYxTTF2R3VHcnM/edit


It was only going to be $2 and a lifetime card and according to the attorney general Arthur Sills who said it was basically going to be minor inconvenience and a good thing because it will insure the 'health, safety and welfare of the citizens'.

That $2 card now costs $80 (Card+Fingerprints+Background Check), plus $15 state NICS fees at the point of sale. Oh did I mention that the NJ state NICS is running has been 7 to 11 days late?

And that application for the card now require that your employer be contacted as well as 2 other references in some towns. People are waiting in NJ up to 100 days just to get a firearms ID card in order for them to buy a shotgun, squirrel rifle or even BB gun.

Need ammo? You need the card in NJ

You want a pistol? A permit to purchase for each pistol, and that includes a black powder pistol and a BB gun pistol. And there is another $18 extra background check, $ 2 for each permit plus the 100 day wait, 7 to 11 day State NICS delay, and the intrusive employer question and the $15+ State NICS fee .

Oh and the NJ one handgun a month limit also applies to even Black powder pistols and BB gun pistols as well as your conventional handguns.

Permit to Purchase? Good idea? Minor inconvenience? No Way...

 

[slamfirev10]

i prefer an implantable micro chip in the forehead or wrist......









........not

 

[we are not amused]

Look, I am not a troll. I am a real, actual person, a many-gun owner and a gun-rights advocate who is burdened with a sense that we are not going to emerge from this with any improvement in our present situation. It will get worse.

No, I don't think you are a troll.

I think you mean well, but just don't understand the situation.

We compromise and lose some rights, the next time something happens, (and it will) we compromise and lose some more, and before long, we don't have any rights left.

That is what we have been doing for far too long!:banghead:

That is the problem with the idiot Sen. Pat Toomey's compromise on mandatory universal fire arms checks. It doesn't really get us anything we didn't already have. I read the provisions on strengthening the Firearms Owners Protection Act, they ought to be introduced on their own, but given the quality, or lack thereof, of Obama's appointees to the Courts, I have confidence that even if enacted, it will stripped of it's meaning by his Judges, and that he will fail to defend it in court.

The only compromise I can support is repealing onlyHalf the Gun Laws for now. We can repeal the other half next year!

What really scares me, is the number of people on this forum who think if we can compromise just this once, every thing will be Unicorns and Rainbows.

I want to retract some of what I said about the Toomey/Manchin Bill, I have been reading it, and the more I read it, the better it looks, I'm not sure I endorse it yet...

 

[Trung Si]

My suggestion: A federal P2P. So, anyone who has one of these has been run through the NICS check.
No Sir!
I want NOTHING to do with the Federal Government, I don't trust them and everything that they get involved in turns to Crap and becomes expensive!

 

[k_dawg]

How about we require criminals to obtain a permit to excercise their 4th/5th/8th and 10th amendment rights?

Until it is granted, the police can do what ever they wish to them.

 

[k_dawg]

Want a true 'compromise'?

Enact Federal Legislation to uphold the recent rulings:

ALL common firearms are absolutely protected. Open and concealed carry is a constitutional right where the requirements for permitting/license can not be any greater than for a Voter ID card.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

How about no. How about you stop thinking that I or anyone else needs permission from the State to exercise our Rights.

America was designed to be the most free, not the most safe. If you're not comfortable with that, go live somewhere else.

 

[0to60]

I'm all for it.

In IL, we have a FOID card requirement to purchase guns. I'd love to see this idea become federal law, and the whole business of gun purchasing taken out of the states' hands.

I'd like there to be some requirements for this "federal FOID" card. You'd need to pass a background check (I don't care about felons' rights), safety course (its in my best interest for other gun owners to understand safety) and a psyche test (don't know if this would prevent shootings, but at least we could say we're being reasonable).

I'll prolly be flamed up and down for my views, but I know a LOT of people agree with this. We live in a country with 300+ million people, many of whom WANT gun control. If we have to compromise, then let's compromise over some things we can live with. I'd rather see some felons denied the right to buy guns than to lose high capacity magazines.

 

[Texshooter]

With no disrespect meant towards the OP, but no way in Hades!

I will not allow the gov't make me get a permit to exercise my constitutional rights.

I have never understood the mentality of people in Non Free states and their acceptance of FOID cards or whatever.

The permit is already ordained by God, and paid for by the blood of Patriots hundreds of years ago.

AND THAT IS PLENTY GOOD ENOUGH!

 

[Midwest]

SLIPPERY SLOPE OF LICENSE FEES


NYC Shotguns and rifles went from no fees to $5.00 all the way to $231.50


In 1967 when it first started. The shotgun license in New York City was $5.00 for any number of rifles.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-16656.html


In 2013
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/rifle_licensing_information.shtml

"The application fee is $140.00. The fingerprint fee is $91.50."
__________________________________________________________________________


NYC The Sullivan law handgun license fee went from $3 to $431.50

In 1911 $3 Fee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Sullivan

Among other laws he helped pass was the Sullivan Act, a state law that required a permit to carry or own a concealed weapon, which eventually became law on May 29, 1911. However, with many residents unable to afford the $3 registration fee......

2013 Handguns
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/handgun_licensing_information.shtml

"The application fee is $340.00. The fingerprint fee is $91.50 for all applicants."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Federal Firearms License $1 in 1938 , $30 in 1968 and $200 today


Even after the 1968 GCA . Anyone with a clean record and over 21 could get a FFL. That was ended in the 1990's by the Clinton Administration when Federal Requirements made FFL's have approval by zoning to conduct their firearms business.


Comments

My point was to show how a simple fee or a modest requirement ended up to be big requirements and very high costs. Three sites I want everyone to check are the proposals by Brady II and Handgun Control.

Brady II
http://www.volokh.com/posts/1190402417.shtml

Handgun Control Inc. 5 year plan against YOU
http://totse2.com/totse/en/politics/right_to_keep_and_bear_arms/hci.html

HCI Rough Draft Proposal for Internal Memo and Five Year Plan
http://varmintal.com/hci.htm

Their strategy was to introduce licensing of handgun owners and slowly increase the fees, other schemes were to license every gun owner first with a modest fee and then increase the fees till no one could afford them.

Among the IMO insane proposals made included 'arsenal licensing', 50% tax on ammunition, huge increases on FFL's and ammo manufacturers. Luckily none of this passed, but it is important to keep all this in mind.

Because they showed their 'hand' 20 years ago and perhaps they figure people might have forgot what they proposed...they might try this again. I didn't forget and I need to keep mentioning it from time to time in order to educate others and to keep aware of what we faced years ago and to prevent them from trying these tactics again.

 

[arizona98tj]

In my home state of Minnesota, we've had for a lot of years a "Permit to Purchase" law that requires would-be handgun buyers to present the permit (issued by the local sheriff) when buying from FFLs.

That is, without a doubt, a frickin' ridiculous law. And having been born and raised in Minnesota nearly 6 decades ago, I'm embarrassed the people in that state actually let it happen. Too many cold winters resulting in brain freeze?

Think about it.....you need a local sheriff to approve a permit so that you can go to a Federal Firearms Licensed dealer so he can do a NICS on you? Wow....isn't that a model of efficiency! How about this...."What can we do to the honest law abiding citizens to squeeze money out of them before we let them buy a handgun?"

 

[TanklessPro]

No thank you.

 

[Arbo]

I just had this idea, and maybe it's got a major flaw that I don't see yet, but here goes --

In my home state of Minnesota, we've had for a lot of years a "Permit to Purchase" law that requires would-be handgun buyers to present the permit (issued by the local sheriff) when buying from FFLs. A few private sellers have been known to want to see the P2P, as well. It's been a bother, but not really an intrusion, since no records have to be kept of sales other than the ones that FFLs already keep.

My suggestion: A federal P2P. So, anyone who has one of these has been run through the NICS check. Private sellers would have to ask see the P2P, but would not be required to file any papers or take any other steps.

And here's the kicker: A higher level of the same permit would become a carry permit good in all 50 states.

No. The feds can't be trusted to not database who has a 'permit'. And as is so often stated, the people already have a general permit to buy firearms: The Constitution.

 

[k_dawg]

I'm all for it.

In IL, we have a FOID card requirement to purchase guns. I'd love to see this idea become federal law, and the whole business of gun purchasing taken out of the states' hands.

I'd like there to be some requirements for this "federal FOID" card. You'd need to pass a background check (I don't care about felons' rights), safety course (its in my best interest for other gun owners to understand safety) and a psyche test (don't know if this would prevent shootings, but at least we could say we're being reasonable).

I'll prolly be flamed up and down for my views, but I know a LOT of people agree with this. We live in a country with 300+ million people, many of whom WANT gun control. If we have to compromise, then let's compromise over some things we can live with. I'd rather see some felons denied the right to buy guns than to lose high capacity magazines.

A heck of alot of people wanted slavery and the ability to beat the snot out of their property, er wife and children.

You seem to have no concent pf what a 'right' is, versus a priveledge.

 

[Midwest]

I'm all for it.

In IL, we have a FOID card requirement to purchase guns. I'd love to see this idea become federal law, and the whole business of gun purchasing taken out of the states' hands.

I'd like there to be some requirements for this "federal FOID" card. You'd need to pass a background check (I don't care about felons' rights), safety course (its in my best interest for other gun owners to understand safety) and a psyche test (don't know if this would prevent shootings, but at least we could say we're being reasonable).

I'll prolly be flamed up and down for my views, but I know a LOT of people agree with this. We live in a country with 300+ million people, many of whom WANT gun control. If we have to compromise, then let's compromise over some things we can live with. I'd rather see some felons denied the right to buy guns than to lose high capacity magazines.

.
As we have it now, people who live in repressive areas like IL, NJ, NY, CT, CA, MA, MD and HI with overly draconian gun laws have a way 'out'. They can move. While that is all to simplistic of a solution. In many cases, it really is the only answer.

However having a Federal ID to purchase guns would make it easier for the govt to make those IL, NJ, NY, CT, CA, MA, MD and HI laws apply to equally in all 50 states and then where would one go?

And please, don't think that it 'won't happen'. They proposed some really draconian stuff 20 years ago like making gun owners obtain $100,000 insurance (Recently made the news as a 'new' proposal).

Firearms Owners Licensing, 50% tax on ammunition, make it a federal crime to buy more than one handgun a month, a permanent 7-day waiting period would be imposed on all handgun transfers (including gifts between family members), increase the taxes to 30% on handguns, and 50% on ammunition (Note: there are ALREADY proposing taxes on ammunition in some areas).

Nothing would prevent licensing authorities from taking months or years to issue a license. (In NJ people are waiting up to 100 days to get a permit to purchase and then have to wait 11 days to pass the state NICS. People in NY state had to wait a year or two to get approval to buy a handgun.)

And nothing would prevent the authorities from making the "safety" test so rigorous that almost no-one except an expert shooter could pass....(This is why having a test in order to buy a firearm is a bad idea. No one needs to be 'tested' to defend themselves)

Again this was proposed 20 years ago and some of it is being proposed again right now in 2013 in some areas. Lets not forget what The Brady Bunch, Handgun Control and other anti-gun groups, individuals and politicians proposed. Having a license for every gun owner was THEIR goal, and I still believe it still is 20 years later.

This stuff was proposed 20 years ago...if you don't believe me look it up yourself
http://totse2.com/totse/en/politics/right_to_keep_and_bear_arms/hci.html
("To the best of our knowledge, the text on this page may be freely reproduced and distributed.")

1 National Licensing of all Handgun purchase This is at the top of our list, however, the political climate maybe right to initiate this step immediately. Please refer to our
memo outlining our ideas on how this should be executed.

2 License for Rifle and Shotguns We should take our cues from Great Britian. Strict licensingshould be mandatory for all firearms, whether handguns or not.

21 A National License for Ammuntion
This is an idea whose time has come. We should look at a Federal License for purchasing of ammunition of all kinds. A special form should be forwarded to a new federal office to track those who are purchasing too much ammunition. Remember that a gun is useless
without ammunition.

23 National Registration of ammunition or ammo buyers Fees colledted from the national licenses should go towards a nationwide database of ammo buyers, with a possible background check to eliminate the purchase of dangerous ammo by felons or mental patients.

Arsenal License anyone?
http://www.volokh.com/posts/1190402417.shtml

Arsenal licensing

Any person who owns 20 or more firearms or more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition or primers (e.g. two "bricks" of rimfire ammo) would be required to get an "arsenal" license. To obtain a federal arsenal license, a person would need to be fingerprinted, obtain permission of local zoning authorities, and pay a $300 tax every three years. Her home would be subjected to unannounced, warrantless inspection by the government up to three times a year. "Arsenal" owners would also have to obtain a $100,000 dollar insurance policy.



'Modest' Gun License fees

http://varmintal.com/hci.htm

The document includes an attachment which gives an overview of the proposed license fees for 1994/1995 Gun Control Proposals. This includes an escalation of fees, which start at $50.00 in the first year, and conclude with fees of $625.00 in the eighth year.

The enclosure also covers a $1,000.00 fine and 6 months jail for failure to acquire a license, followed by recommendations of $5,000.00 and 12 months jail for failure to maintain a license, and $15,000.00 and 18 months jail for failure to turn over guns for destruction after lapse of license.

Failure to re-new a license or notify issuing authority of change of status would be considered a felony. All firearms owned would then be considered contraband and could be confiscated. There is also a schedule for the licensing of rifles and shotguns, and the proposal for arsenal licensing. This includes a $300.00 to $1,000.00 annual fee, and $200.00/gun if over the prescribed limit. There is also a provision for assessing $100.00/50 rounds over the limit for ammunition.

Included is an outline covering the suggested fee schedule for a Safe License of $228.00 to $392.00 per year, and Ammunition Registration and License of $55.00 to $117.00 per year to purchase ammunition.

Other fees discussed include: Federal Re-Loading License of $130.00 to $175.00 per year. Ammunition Safe License Fee of $55.00 to $75.00 per year. Range License fee of $12,000.00 to $15,000.00 per year. Range Tax fee of $85.00 to $100.00 per person per visit. Inspection License fee of $588.00 to $688.00 per year.

III. AN ESTIMATE OF THE FISCAL IMPACT OF THE LICENSING ON FIREARMS OWNERSHIP:

A recap of the fiscal impact of the licensing of firearms ownership is shown to be $1,556.00 to $3,473.00 per year.


So the question is, is a Federal Permit a good idea. Absolutely NOT
I hope some of the above woke some people up to what was proposed long ago....and made them think. They are trying to pass some of this all over again.

.

 

[holdencm9]

D-math, as another Minnesotan, I can somewhat see where you are coming from on the P2P. At first it was a nuisance, but now that I have my carry permit, it is valid as a purchase permit for 5 years (FYI, they are trying to change that, so call your legislator). But anyway, for that amount of time I can just walk into a gun store and walk out with a handgun, that same day, not 3 or 5 or 7 days later. So in that regard, it is nice, but only after a whole mess up hassle up front. I can't say if I would prefer a waiting period of the way they do it here, I'd actually prefer neither!

That said, I knew your idea would not go over well here at THR. Asking for permission from the guvermint really gets people riled up, and I have to agree. You shouldn't need permission to exercise a fundamental right. And if I could undo the permit to purchase in MN I would...not in favor of waiting periods, but just get rid of it entirely, as well as the carry permit, and just go to constitutional carry, but that is a long shot. I have never sold a gun private party (or at all, really) but if I did, I think it would be nice to see a p2p, since I can't run a NICS check myself. Others may scoff at that but to me it is just peace of mind.

Also, to clarify the way it works for those outside the state: in MN you get a permit to purchase from the local PD, which is good for 1 year. You get the carry permit issued by the county sheriff which is good for 5 years. Hence I think a lot of people who buy guns semi-regularly like to get their carry permit just so they don't have to keep redoing the p2p paperwork. Also, this only applies to handguns and semi-auto rifles. Shotguns and other rifles you can just walk in and buy.

 

[bigfatdave]

I'm all for it.

In IL <snip>

We (as much as there is a "we", anyway) have been working to put nonsense laws back in IL, NJ, NY, CA, not help that cancer spread.
Just because you're used to being a serf in IL doesn't mean it will go over elsewhere. Using IL as a model for proposed legislation elsewhere won't gain you a lot of credibility, I'd rather not have the gun laws of Chicago here, I escaped it and the crap had better stop trying to follow me.