How bad is the "compromise," twist?

[peacemaker45]

Since I'm in the process of converting all my right handed guns to lefty friendly or left handed models entirely, I find myself in the market for a traditionally styled caplock rifle to replace my old .50 T/C Hawken. I'd just about settled on one of Lyman's Great Plains Hunters, when I ran across a lefty T/C .54 Renegade for about half the price.

I almost bought it, but then I remembered that, rather than the fast 1 in 28 twist that stabilizes heavy conicals and sabot type rounds, or the slow 1 in 70 rate that's favored for patched round balls, T/C favored 1 in 48.

That's what my Hawken originally had, but my dad claims that rather than being a good halfway point, it was more like the worst of both worlds, and fitted it with a Green Mountain fast twist barrel years ago.

I imagine that, if the too slow twist would only stabilize the lighter conicals, then that would be exacerbated in .54, where they're the size of tuna cans, right?

So how bad is it?

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I have a 1 in 48 Thompson Grey Hawk. With open sights, I can put all shots at 100 yards in a 12" plate with either balls or bullets.

 

[rodwha]

From what I understand the original Hawkins rifles left their building with 1:48" twists. If they didn't shoot well they likely wouldn't have sold so many and made a good name for their products.

I have a Lyman's Deerstalker with this twist, but am still in the process of breaking it in. I haven't tried many variations. I mostly shoot 70 grns of Pyrodex RS/P with a .490" RB and 0.015" patch using grape seed oil. At 50 yds my groups are typically about 3", but I have noticed how fast my eyesight has degraded over the last couple of years (last they were checked it was 20/40). I'm in desperate need of spectacles! So I think these groups could/would shrink considerably with more work and better eyes.

But I've also read of complaints with this "compromise" twist. I don't think you can expect match grade accuracy, but hunting grade out to 100 yds I'd think ought to be likely.

 

[Patocazador]

I've never shot anything except maxi-balls in my T/C Hawken and they did fine. I used it for deer hunting and that bullet would knock them flat.

 

[MutinousDoug]

I've had a .54 Renegade since 1982 and my experience with it mirror's ColtPython Elite's: It usually keeps all shots on an 8.5x11" target at 100 yds. with either a RB or Maxi-ball (different zeros).
In contrast, my .50 Hopkins & Allen underhammer with a 1/66" twist regularly groups half that (but with RB only).
Doug

 

[PapaG]

My original renegade 54, back in the early 70s, did quite well with both RB and maxis. I once shot ten of each alternating between RB and maxi each shot with 90 grains of DuPont FFg and all grouped in 7 ring or better on the NMLRA 50 yard target at 50 yards. I never saw 1 in 48 as a compromise. That said, my Douglas barreled flinter, 1 in 66, grouped five 45 cal maxis in 4 inches at 100 off cross sticks with 100 gr of FFg.

 

[Noz]

I have a CVA 50 that has the 1/48.
It will shoot any conical or sabot bullet I have tried in it with great precision. It loves the Maxi hunters.
It will not shoot a patched ball. I tried several ball diameters, patch thickness, patch composition, several brands and granulation of powder and every possible charge fro 40 grs to 110 grs and could not keep it on 8.5x11 paper at 30 yards

 

[rodwha]

Lyman's Deerstalkers with their 1:48" twist comes in two flavors. One with shallow grooves, which states it's intention is to be used with sabots/conicals, and deeper grooves, which doesn't actually specify, but gives ball diameters for.

If one has shallow grooves can they expect to be able to shoot PRB well enough? I wonder if this is part of the equation on whether it does well, and with what.

If your grooves are deep I'd think a wad would seal the bore well enough to use a sabot/conical. I suppose I'll find out one day soon if I have need of a wad with a sabot or conical.

 

[scotjute]

"... it was more like the worst of both worlds..." - an apt way of putting it.

 

[Zeke/PA]

My T/C Hawkin is one that I built from a kit almost 40 years ago and of course the twist rate is 1in48. I shoot home cast .490 round balls over 45 grains of FFFG using a .013" patch for excellent accuracy. My hunting load is a home cast 375 grain Maxi- Ball over 90 grains of FFG. I've taken a slew of deer over the years with the rifle. I can relate in a positive way to the "compromise"twist.

 

[243winxb]

The RPM's of the bullet are what you need to watch. This may be changed by the amount of powder used. My T/C Hawken 45 flint lock does well with both maxi & round ball. Its very hard to over stabilize a bullet/projectile with to many RPM's/velocity. 90gr* 2F-ball-1760 fps or 110gr-1917fps. The Maxi likes 110gr*-1689 fps. *accuracy load-5" @ 100 yds. or better. You may not want a maximum loading in a 54. They KICK.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The 1:48 twist was historically a very popular rifling rate. Your father's information was not correct. It was meant to shoot round ball both for targets and for large game.

There is more to rifling than simply twist rate. The depth of the grooves, the style of the grooves, and the width of the lands all play a factor.

During the last half of the 18th century, and going into the first half of the 19th century, the normal procedure when going after big game was to choose a caliber that would shoot a large round ball. The bigger and more dangerous the game animal, the larger the bore of the rifle. What this did though was give the shooter a rather "rainbow" trajectory out to 200 yards, hence you might find some large bore rifles, especially German ones, with flip up rear sights to adjust for longer ranges.

So, some big game hunters found that instead of fooling with the sights, one could drastically reduce the "rainbow" trajectory of really large, patched round balls (from .58 caliber on up to 1.00 caliber) by using really large powder loads. What folks found out though, was that when using very stout loads, 110 grains of black powder or larger and a huge lead round ball vs. large and dangerous game, the patched, round ball tended to push over or skip over the rifling, and thus the rifle was worthless unless the large and dangerous game was right on top of you....,

So slower twists were developed, and in fact when one is hunting in India or Africa and going for elephant in either location, or Tiger in India or Cape Buffalo in Africa with say a .675 patched round ball (or even bigger) one needs a rifle with a barrel twist of 1:104 and a powder charge of at least 165 grains. These barrels though..., really suck when you use lighter loads for target shooting, so it's either use jaw jarring loads, or don't shoot 'em (See Forsyth The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles 1867 if you want full details.)

Today, you do find some advantages with a 1:60+ twist round ball barrel if you are going to use 90+ grains of powder. Yet, at under 90 grains, and more like around 55 -80 grains, a 1:48 twist with a proper patch, will do very well..., well mine do..., and I also have rifles that are 1:56.

LD

 

[Hanshi]

1-48" twists were quite common for original ML rifles. From my experiences this twist is wonderfully accurate with prb and, usually, conicals. Beware of shallow rifling as prb accuracy might be less than expected. With reasonably deep rifling you'll probably have the best of both worlds, although deeper rifling is not that great for conicals.

 

[madsend81]

I have a Traditions Hawken rifle with a 1:48 twist rate that I shoot .490 ball with a .015 patch and 60 gns of BP. I recently taught a muzzleloading class to a group of boy scouts. I set the targets (25yd pistol slow fire) out at 25 yds. As part of my demonstration of proper loading and shooting to the boys, I took aim and fired a round. I nailed the 10 ring.

During the course of the event, all the boys were able to keep sub 3" groups with my rifle shooting patch and ball at that distance.

 

[Patocazador]

I recently taught a muzzleloading class to a group of boy scouts. I set the targets (25yd pistol slow fire) out at 25 yds. As part of my demonstration of proper loading and shooting to the boys, I took aim and fired a round. I nailed the 10 ring.
During the course of the event, all the boys were able to keep sub 3" groups with my rifle shooting patch and ball at that distance.

You are to be commended for teaching youngsters in the 'gun arts'. I got my start from a Boy Scout .22 target course at a YMCA when I was 11.

 

[Ifishsum]

I have two 1:48s .50 cals, both very accurate with PRB as long as the powder charge is not over 70-75gr. For me that isn't a bad compromise because I haven't had much reason to shoot heavier loads. I haven't shot enough conicals to gather any useful data.

 

[ontarget]

How deep is considered "deep" rifling? and when using a Minnie would a wad be appropriate?

 

[rodwha]

A Minie has a thin skirt of lead at the base which expands at detonation to fill in the grooves for spin. Prior to this it should be undersized. You would not want to use a wad under it as it wouldn't allow it to grab the riflings.

But you can use a wad with most other conicals. I believe the idea is that not all of the bore sized conicals actually fill in the grooves completely allowing the gasses to pass the projectile which reduces the pressure and therefor speed. Not to mention it leads the barrel more.

Lyman's shows a .502" bore with either a deep groove of .520" or a shallow groove of .510". These numbers aren't exact, but ought to be fairly close.