How close was these loads to Kaboom???
- Thread starter Blue68f100
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blue68f100, I want to commend you for noticing the anomalous velocity reading and suggesting that the shooter stop for diagnosis. That was the absolutely right thing to do. And when your guest wouldn't heed your suggestion, backing up was a prudent thing to do.
Personally, I might not invite that guest back until they understood that when I say "stop", everything on that range stops until we can proceed safely.
OP
OP
Blue68f100
Member
Thank you for running those number through QL for me.
What would the data look like with 25.4 gr of CFE-223. I confirmed this was what these were suppose to be loaded too. I know this will be a compressed load as to how much I have not a clue. His seating depth may be a little deeper. Since he made them all the same length at 2.260"-2.255". This puts 0.090" of the bullet deeper into the case.
I scrolled through the data on my crony this morning. There was only 2 at 3704, 3700, with several around 2620-2670. I'm not sure he even used all the same head stamp at this time.
OP
OP
Blue68f100
Member
We have talked and he agrees he should of stopped and let me tear one down to see the actual end results. This has bugged him too, knowing he may have gone over the edge. The bad thing he could not think of any thing he did wrong till we talked. Once I found out he use a Hornady 68gr in place of a Sierra 69gr I showed him the difference. It had not dawn on him that the bullets were that much difference in length. I also found out that he had a few beers during the loading process. This is after a long day working on ranch/farm. This alone can effect your judgement. I try to express the need to have 100% of your concentration during reloading. All it takes is one mistake for some one to get hurt.
Another issue that effects chronos are muzzle devices. According to OP one gun had a muzzle break/flash hider and one didn't. One grain difference in the bullet won't cause a substantial difference in velocity, let alone 700 FPS.
I have an old Shooting Chrony chronograph. I have no way of calibrating it, but believe it has been accurate as the figures it produces are comparable to what is shown in the published load data over a wide range of cartridges and velocities.
Still, optical chronographs are susceptible to false readings due to environmental interference.
This past weekend, I shot roughly 100 rounds of 9mm Parabellum that had been loaded with four different powders to see which loading would give the best performance in my new pistol. The velocities reported were consistent and comparable to what was shown in the published data.
I also brought along 10 rounds of .38 Special. 3.7 grains Green Dot, 158 Grain bullet, per Lee's data supplied with my dies (slightly above the 3.5 published by Alliant in 2004). I had loaded 3.3 grains of Green Dot with the same bullets in November 1993 with no problems, so I was not concerned about stepping up to the figure in Lee's data. I was using these to test the effect of the amount of crimp on performance. Each charge was thrown light and trickled up to weight. This should have given velocities in the 900 fps range. The rounds were themselves consistent. Discounting two that were off-target because I had forgotten the heavy trigger pull on the gun, the remainder ended up in a circle about and inch and a half in diameter at 10 yards. I write this to focus on the chronograph and not have people second-guessing the load or my technique.
These loads produced considerable muzzle flash and this appeared to have an effect on the chronograph situated about 8 feet in front of the firing line as it failed to register five of the shots altogether and returned velocities for the others ranging between 610 and 1351 fps (610, 923, 957, 1197, 1351). I regard all of the data from the .38 Special to have been affected by the muzzle flash and thus unreliable.
Something similar may have happened with the OP's chronograph.
Still, optical chronographs are susceptible to false readings due to environmental interference.
This past weekend, I shot roughly 100 rounds of 9mm Parabellum that had been loaded with four different powders to see which loading would give the best performance in my new pistol. The velocities reported were consistent and comparable to what was shown in the published data.
I also brought along 10 rounds of .38 Special. 3.7 grains Green Dot, 158 Grain bullet, per Lee's data supplied with my dies (slightly above the 3.5 published by Alliant in 2004). I had loaded 3.3 grains of Green Dot with the same bullets in November 1993 with no problems, so I was not concerned about stepping up to the figure in Lee's data. I was using these to test the effect of the amount of crimp on performance. Each charge was thrown light and trickled up to weight. This should have given velocities in the 900 fps range. The rounds were themselves consistent. Discounting two that were off-target because I had forgotten the heavy trigger pull on the gun, the remainder ended up in a circle about and inch and a half in diameter at 10 yards. I write this to focus on the chronograph and not have people second-guessing the load or my technique.
These loads produced considerable muzzle flash and this appeared to have an effect on the chronograph situated about 8 feet in front of the firing line as it failed to register five of the shots altogether and returned velocities for the others ranging between 610 and 1351 fps (610, 923, 957, 1197, 1351). I regard all of the data from the .38 Special to have been affected by the muzzle flash and thus unreliable.
Something similar may have happened with the OP's chronograph.
Every once in a while you'll get a reading from a chrono that simply isn't correct. Sometimes if the sun is down low a chrono will not function properly. Sometimes there isn't any obvious explanation.
If the crazy velocity isn't matched by serious pressure signs on the brass, it isn't right.
I have had times when shooting pistols over a chrono that the numbers have been so bad I just discount them and do it again later. Such as an ES of 450, when you know the load can't that bad.
If the crazy velocity isn't matched by serious pressure signs on the brass, it isn't right.
I have had times when shooting pistols over a chrono that the numbers have been so bad I just discount them and do it again later. Such as an ES of 450, when you know the load can't that bad.
From my written reloading procedures:
1. Drinking alcohol within 24 hours of reloading is forbidden
2. Eating while reloading is forbidden.
Being buzzed, tipsy, drunk or hungover when reloading seems to me to be a recipe for disaster. It may seem silly for me to have something so obvious written into procedures only I ever see, but the procedures form the basis for the checklist that goes along with each batch of cartridges and it requires certification that step #1 has been followed.
Jim Watson
Member
A few beers?
Might be an ex buddy or at least an ex shooting buddy.
Heck, I have preloaded my magazines for tomorrow because I am likely to have a drink at supper.
Might be an ex buddy or at least an ex shooting buddy.
Heck, I have preloaded my magazines for tomorrow because I am likely to have a drink at supper.
35 Whelen
Member
I just found a load out of Rifle magazine that used the Hornady 68 gr. HP over 25.8 grs. of CFE. 2811 fps out of an 18 1/2" barrel. The chromograph is either whacked or was out in direct sunlight when in use. Had this happen many times.
On the drink while reloading, I enjoy a beer while loading. No harm no foul. Funny how folks get all up tight about a beer during a loading session yet think nothing of tossing back a few and then hurling a 2 ton chunk of steel down the rode at 75 mph.
35W
On the drink while reloading, I enjoy a beer while loading. No harm no foul. Funny how folks get all up tight about a beer during a loading session yet think nothing of tossing back a few and then hurling a 2 ton chunk of steel down the rode at 75 mph.
35W
OP
OP
Blue68f100
Member
My shooting area is shaded by trees, crony in the shade. I only get the mid after noon sun where I'm setup at. I've had bad and missed data in the past, most were sun related (getting to sensors). I never set the crony up less than 12' which as worked for me up to now. May start moving it back to 15' so this may not happen again.
The brass did show signs of over pressure, I said this in my original post. Extractor imprinted on the base, brass swipes, primers where flattened to very little rounded edge left. These were the CCI 41 which are pretty tough. None of them blew though, and none fell out on their own.
As far as my neighbor, I rather help him out so he does not make the same mistake. He has been reloading as long as I have, 4 decades. But he has had 4 heart attacks which has impacted his memory recall. And he's 5 yrs older than I am. A Vietnam veteran with PTSD too. So he has some health issues he's dealing with too. If I mention something a lot of time it triggers his recall. Other wise he may be lost trying to think of it till he asks a question. Some times I have to explain things several times before it sinks in.
I've been working on his documentation, record keeping. He writes loads on the side of paper ammo boxes, inside on the sleeve but does not date them so you don't know what it is. He does since he know the last entry. I gave him a stack a labels to use, hoping it will clear some of it up.
higgite
Member
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Blue,
For the same bullets as before over 25.4 gr CFE223, QL says:
Sierra bullet
52,463 psi
2700 fps
98.8% Fill
Hornady bullet
55,535 psi (This is above SAAMI max of 55,000 psi for .223 Rem)
2754 fps
101.7% Fill
Jesse Heywood
Member
At my cardiologist I asked about major short term memory issues. The tech told me that it is a big problem, depending on how long your brain was deprived of oxygen. That is the reason his thought process goes tilt, and it is frustrating as he11. In my case, the key to overcoming this is structure and repetition. One of my problems is with taking my meds. I had to set up a routine. I have to do it one step at a time, with clues to tell me what I just did when I have a brain fart. My motto: I probably can't tell you what I had for breakfast. But I can tell about things I did at the age of 2.
The labels are a good idea. I would also make him a notebook to track what he did at the bench. Walk him through filling it out, but do not do it for him. You don't want to be an aggressive teacher. If his train of thought derails, say something like "thinking" in a quiet voice. Also, give him a place to note how he felt that day.
The secret is to work these things with being demanding or pushy. Work in a world of what-ifs. He will probably start butting heads and resisting. If it gets to that point, take a break for a cup of Joe. And if he hasn't rebalanced, leave and return later.
Remember, you are dealing with a man who can be as lost as a child in a forest. But, he is a man, who's pride is hurt in addition to the panic of the child. You will be the mentor, guiding but not leading, encouraging but not pushing. He desperately needs your help, but will not ask for it and doesn't want it. May God bless you as you proceed.
To the OP, maybe it's time to gently suggest to your friend and neighbor that he only reload when you can join in on the session? There is no telling what powder or charge he 'could' be using by mistake? His safety comes first.
As a Vietnam Vet myself tell him thanks for his service and welcome home brother for me.
As a Vietnam Vet myself tell him thanks for his service and welcome home brother for me.
Jim Watson
Member
"Shaded by trees".
The flicker of light leaking through the leaves will scramble chronograph readings.
BTDT, not theory.
The flicker of light leaking through the leaves will scramble chronograph readings.
BTDT, not theory.
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