How do other countries (Israel etc) handle school security?

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JellyJar

Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
1,295
Location
Alabama
I have read articles in the past that in Israel parents, grandparents and such have been trained to be volunteer security guards after a horrific school massacre by terrorist back in the 70s. In trying to do research ( without much success ) on how Israel handles school security today it appears that they do have professional security guards now.

Can somebody answer these questions?

1. Does Israel still use volunteer security guards at their schools or are they all professional now.?

2. Are Israeli school teachers allow to be armed during school and if so are there many who do go armed during school?
============================

MODERATOR NOTE - title changed 12/18, to reflect a broader scope for this thread by including other countries
 
Depending on the type and location of the school, they might have private, volunteer, or even govt.-provided security.
Again depending on type and location of the school, teachers can carry concealed, and schools often have a small armory and can issue pistols to teachers.
Any kind of school or community "field trip" will also include security personnel, as well as the possibility of armed teachers or parents.
When I lived in Israel, I was a part-time security coordinator in my community, and I ran the local armory. I often went as one of the guards on trips with our regional high school.
Here's an interesting story:
http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2008/01/armed-teachers-stop-terrorist-attack-in.html
 
Sadly what has happened was very close to home. I have an elementary school child and have been receiving numerous updates from our school superintendent about how they are reevaluating security. We'll see what if any changes come about. My wife thinks guards in schools are impractical. I think if we can dedicate real security to banks and airplanes we can do the same for our kids. An added benefit would be putting more people to work across the country. no one thinks these things will happen until they do.
 
Ayoob Interview

I'll add the following.

Massad Ayoob was asked for his views on prevention in an interview that was just broadcast on KMOX Radio in St. Louis. A neighbor who knows that I attended MAG-20 last year called to tell me about it.

His answer: put in place threat management techniques that can be applied immediately. There is never time for the professionals to get there.

Mas mentioned a school attack in Israel four decades ago. They armed selected members of the staff (they carry concealed, and they are not identified) and allow some parents and grandparents to be on site armed. There hasn't been massacre in any of the shools in which these measures have been implemented since, and the attacks that have occurred have been dealt with before the number of casualties became large..

He added that there were terrorist problems in schools in the Philippines years ago. Their response was similar, and the drop in incidents was dramatic.

Same thing in Peru.

I've been saying that that's what we need to do here, but I had not known about the other countries.

Mas mentioned fire safety for comparison. He discussed in surprising detail some of the aspects of the tragic fire that occurred at Our Lady of the Angels School in Chicago in December of 1958. Significant preventive measures of all kinds were instituted in all schools after that. There hasn't been a death in a school fire in this country for five decades.

His view is that school staff could be enabled with about forty hours of training.

I wanted to share this for the benefit of those who haven't heard it. I'm going to keep this thread closed unless Fred wants to do otherwise.
 
Last edited:
I've edited the thread title to reflect a broader scope to the question, and re-opened it. There are some things that are worth adding here, I think. I'd particularly appreciate it if posters paid attention to the varying nature of threats manifesting themselves in various places, and the relative amounts of attention paid to the selection, training and other preparation given to those who are considered for the role of going armed in educational facilities to defend students and staff.

For one example, an update to this 2008 story has been on the news lately:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/15/texas-school-district-to_n_119282.html

Texas School District To Let Teachers Carry Concealed Firearms
08/15/08 08:18 PM ET

HARROLD, Texas — A tiny Texas district will allow teachers and staff members to carry concealed firearms to deter and protect against school shootings when classes begin this month, provided the gun-toting employees follow certain requirements.

The small community of Harrold in north Texas is a 30-minute drive from the Wilbarger County Sheriff's Office, leaving students and teachers without protection, said David Thweatt, superintendent of the Harrold Independent School District. The lone campus of the 110-student district sits near a heavily traveled highway, which could make it a target, he argued.

"When the federal government started making schools gun-free zones, that's when all of these shootings started. Why would you put it out there that a group of people can't defend themselves? That's like saying 'sic 'em' to a dog," Thweatt said in a story published Friday on the Fort Worth Star-Telegram's Web site.

Barbara Williams, a spokeswoman for the Texas Association of School Boards, said her organization did not know of another district with such a policy. Ken Trump, a Cleveland-based school security expert who advises districts nationwide, said Harrold is the first district with such a policy.

Trustees approved the policy change last year. For employees to carry a pistol, they must have a Texas license to carry a concealed handgun; must be authorized to carry by the district; must receive training in crisis management and hostile situations; and must ammunition designed to minimize the risk of ricocheting bullets.

Officials researched the policy and considered other options for about a year before approving the policy change, Thweatt said. The district also has other measures in place to prevent a school shooting, he said.

"The naysayers think (a shooting) won't happen here. If something were to happen here, I'd much rather be calling a parent to tell them that their child is OK because we were able to protect them," Thweatt said.

Texas law outlaws firearms at schools unless specific institutions allow them.
///snip///

==================================================

Also, one well known training facility has renewed its offer to train teachers and school administrators free. This offer has been repeated for several years now...

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2012/12/14/front-sight-special-blog-when-will-we-wake-up/

Front Sight Special Blog: When Will We Wake Up?
December 14th, 2012

Please Forward to Your Local Newspapers, Radio Stations, and Television News Stations

Subject: Gun School For Teachers

Las Vegas, Nevada: In the wake of the yet another senseless school massacre, I ask all our politicians, law enforcement officials, and school administrators one simply question:

WHEN ARE WE GOING TO WAKE UP AS A NATION AND PROTECT OUR CHILDREN?

How many more children have to die before we will find the testicular fortitude, as a nation, to put in place REAL policies that will stop a deranged gunman in his tracks, before he can commit mass murder on innocent and defenseless children?

How many times do I have to offer the nation THE solution?

What the hell is wrong with the leaders of our country? Find a pair, and make the RIGHT decision to protect our children, not more of the wrong decisions that create the opportunity for the next lunatic to murder at will with zero resistance!

Once again, Front Sight Firearms Training Institute, arguably the world leader in providing intensified courses in the defensive use of firearms for private citizens, has the answer to stopping further attacks on school children. Front Sight will once again offer free firearms training to any school administrator, teachers, or full time staff members designated as school Safety Monitors.

Front Sight will accept for training up to three staff members from each school, college or university.
//snip///
 
I read an article this morning (I believe it was the Washington Post) correcting one of their earlier articles about gun control in Israel. According to there are now (in the past few years) a lot more gun control laws for civilians in Israel and it isn't the gun friendly place it's often made out to be. This would relate to the original post in terms of volunteers, etc.

Do we have any Israeli members here who can offer some perspective?



(Reading on my phone so search isn't easy but I think this is the link:

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/w...guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/. )
 
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest...uld-be-armed-says-Texas-Gov.-Rick-Perry-video

After Sandy Hook, teachers should be armed, says Texas Gov. Rick Perry (+video)
Texas Gov. Rick Perry says he supports allowing teachers to carry concealed handguns in schools in the wake of the Sandy Hook shooting. Perry also said that mental health issues should be considered as a way to make schools safer.
By Nomaan Merchant, Associated Press / December 18, 2012

Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicated Monday that he supported allowing teachers and administrators to carry concealed handguns in response to the Connecticut school massacre that left 20 children dead.

Local school districts should decide their own policies, Perry said. But if someone has obtained a concealed-handgun license, he said, "you should be able to carry your handgun anywhere in this state." He clarified that private property owners should be allowed to impose their own restrictions.
///snip///

=================================================

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...-to-discussion-about-arming-school-employees/

December 18th, 2012
02:45 PM ET
5 hours ago
Virginia governor open to discussion about arming school employees
Posted by
CNN's Gregory Wallace

(CNN) - A second Republican governor on Tuesday expressed his openness to considering arming school personnel, including teachers, as a line of defense against violence such as the Friday shooting at a Connecticut elementary school.

Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell did not outwardly endorse such a plan, but cautioned against immediately rejecting it.

"I know there's been a knee jerk reaction against that," McDonnell said to the idea when asked in an interview on WTOP, a Washington radio station. "I think there should be a discussion of that - if people were armed, not just the police officer but other school officials were trained and chose to have a weapon, certainly there would have been an opportunity to stop aggressors coming in to the schools."

His comments follow an endorsement of the idea by Gov. Rick Perry, R-Texas, Monday night. He said teachers with the proper training and license should have "access to weapons in their school" and licensed Texans "should be able to carry your handgun anywhere in this state."

McDonnell pointed to armed airline pilots as an example of non-law enforcement professionals carrying firearms on the job. Thousands of pilots have gone through training and been authorized to carry a firearm aboard their airplane.

The state's current law bans possession of a firearm by anyone other than law enforcement within 1,000 feet of a school – a measure McDonnell said he supported.

Before this term as governor, McDonnell served as attorney general of his state from 2006-2009, which included the 2007 killing of 33 people at Virginia Tech.

He spoke about watching news of the Friday shooting unfold on his television, and said it is time for "another discussion about mental health and mental public safety and how those intersect," and time to consider "how are we going to be a more just and fair and compassionate society so people don't act out like this."

"My hope is that we're not at that point where when a little first or second grader comes in to school, the first thing they see is a police officer with a gun," he said in the interview

Arming school personnel in the most recent school shooting could have saved lives, McDonnell suggested. The gunman who forced his way into Sandy Hook Elementary School killed 20 students and six adults in a barrage of bullets, police said, before taking his own life.

"This perpetrator went into the principal's office and actually killed the principal that was lunging, according to the facts that have come out so far, at the perpetrator heroically to try to stop him," he said. "If a person was armed and trained could they have stopped the carnage in the classroom? Perhaps. I think these are discussions that rational people should have to see what works to be able to stop school violence."
///snip///
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4651711.stm

Last Updated: Tuesday, 5 July, 2005, 09:44 GMT 10:44 UK
Thai teachers to be allowed guns

Many teachers in the south want to be armed against militant attacks
School teachers in Thailand's troubled southern provinces will be allowed to carry guns, the government has said.

The move is one of a series of measures designed to keep education staff from leaving the violence-hit south.

Many of the region's teachers are thought to have either stopped working or demanded a transfer from the area.

More than 700 people, including at least 24 teachers, have been killed since January 2004 in unrest which the government blames on Islamic militants.

Teachers are often targeted as they are seen as symbols of Thailand's Buddhist authorities.

'Fearful and demoralised'

"We have granted special rights for teachers to carry guns," deputy education minister Rung Kaewdaeng told reporters on Tuesday, adding that 2,000 teachers had already requested arms.


TROUBLED SOUTH

Home to most of Thailand's 4% Muslim minority
Muslim rebels fought the government up to the mid-80s
Suspected militants have upped attacks since 2004, targeting Buddhists
Security forces' response criticised by rights groups

Thailand's restive south
"They need guns. This is now a necessity as many people have survived attacks because they shot back at the attackers," Mr Rung is quoted as saying by the French news agency AFP.

They will be provided with cheap or second-hand firearms and flak jackets, he added.

In the most violent areas of southern Thailand, teachers are already escorted to school by security personnel.
///snip///

==============================

http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/teachers-being-targeted-and-murdered-in-thailand/

VIEW FROM ASIA DECEMBER 16, 2012, 11:07 PM 3 Comments
Teachers Being Targeted and Murdered in Thailand
By MARK MCDONALD

HONG KONG — In Thailand, it’s the teachers who are being targeted and killed — in their schools, during the day, in front of their students, with assault weapons.

Attacks on schoolteachers by Muslim insurgents in southern Thailand have escalated terribly in recent days, like last week, when men with M-16s walked into a school cafeteria in Pattani Province, separated out two Buddhist instructors and killed them on the spot. One of them, the school principal, was shot in the head at point-blank range.

Khru Ya, a retired teacher in Pattani, and a Muslim, told The Bangkok Post: “There is a saying among insurgents: ‘Get Buddhists, gain merit.’ They believe that if they kill Buddhists, they will go to heaven.”

An investigative report released Monday by Human Rights Watch demanded that the insurgents end their school attacks and called for added security measures by the Thai government.
///snip///
 
Please, let's not post bare links here. Links are fragile things and can change quickly, leading to 404s at best. Please post at least enough of an article to give an idea of what it covers, or briefly summarize the text or video at the link in your own words.

When posting links to blogs, please be sure and get the link to the specific entry and not the home page - blog entries get posted in various ways but after a few days go by it can be difficult to locate a specific entry without a specific link. Some useful material, Trueno, thanks for the leads.
===================

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/12/18/beyond-symbolism-protecting-the-children/

Massad Ayoob
BEYOND SYMBOLISM: PROTECTING THE CHILDREN
Tuesday, December 18th, 2012

There is precedent for arming school personnel in the United States, seen here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/12/14/4486104/texas-school-where-teachers-carry.html

As discussed in the blog entry below this one, there is certainly precedent for arming school personnel elsewhere in the world, with successful results, as seen here: http://www.examiner.com/article/arming-teachers-worked-for-israel-and-thailand?cid=rss , and as elaborated on here most authoritatively by Dr. David Schiller: http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/school.htm

There were brave teachers who died in the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut, according to the British press, as seen here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-tried-to-stop-killer-to-protect-pupils.html . Unfortunately, against a man with a gun who’s not within physical reach, even such great courage is fatally futile, as we saw in the instant case. One lawmaker has had the courage to say so publicly: according to this source, http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/School-Shooting-Gun-Control/2012/12/17/id/468035#ixzz2FM5wfuAu ,”Rep. Louie Gohmert, R-Texas, was the sole representative of gun rights’ activists on the various Sunday talk shows. In an interview on ‘Fox News Sunday,’ Gohmert defended the sale of assault weapons and said that the principal at Sandy Hook Elementary School, who authorities say died trying to overtake the shooter, should herself have been armed. I wish to God she had had an M-4 in her office, locked up so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out and she didn’t have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands. But she takes him (the shooter) out, takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids,’ Gohmert said.”

Would schoolteachers balk at this new role? Certainly, perhaps a majority. But there would be some – ex-cops, ex-armed services personnel, and those with a strong instinct to be the sheepdog protecting the lamb from the wolf, who would volunteer, and it WOULD have to be a voluntary thing. Remember that the Israeli model also encompasses parents, grandparents, and other community volunteers to serve in this guardian mode, including currently sworn off-duty police officers.
///snip///

More at the link, including comments - http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/12/18/beyond-symbolism-protecting-the-children/
 
http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net/massadsurvey.htm

Massad Ayoob's recommendations on campus safety

///snip///
Question One:
What do you think can be done to make students and faculty safer on university and college campuses?

We’ve seen from the collective Israeli, Peruvian, and Filipino experience that a program of arming teachers and other responsible adults on campus – adults who have volunteered for the program, and been expressly trained to handle it – has dramatically reduced mass murders in these institutional environments. In the Israeli model, the volunteers included parents and grandparents of students; teachers; and administrators and other school personnel.

Here in this country, we have the incident in Pearl, Mississippi where the high school vice principal managed to get his pistol from his truck in the parking lot, take the young mass-murderer at gunpoint, and stop the killings. We have the recent incident in Salt Lake City where only an off-duty cop with a pistol was able to pin down the mass murderer and stop the killing until police reinforcements could arrive. We have the recent incident in Colorado where an adult volunteer, a member of the congregation who had a CCW permit, interdicted and stopped a mass murder at her church. And we have the incident at the Appalachian Law School where two adult students, licensed to carry weapons, drew down on a mass murderer and captured him alive, interdicting his murder spree.

In the adult education environment, certainly responsible adult students with CCW permits should be able to exercise their self-protection rights at the learning institution as readily as the law would allow them to do anywhere else.

In sum, we need competent, armed personnel, including qualified adult students with CCW permits on campus.

Question Two:
What do you think can be done to make students and teachers safer in our nation's public schools (elementary and secondary schools)?

My answer would be the same as to Question One, except of course the armed option would be limited to carefully-selected and trained adults in the supervised security program. Armed protection must already be in place, rather than reactively summoned.

Question Three:
What are the likely outcomes of further gun control laws?

The “gun-free zone” has become a hunting preserve for psychopaths who hunt humans. It is objectively obvious that mass murderers choose venues where they can expect to be unhindered for at least several minutes as they go about their carefully planned deeds. Continued restrictive legislation as exists in Wisconsin and Illinois, to name just two jurisdictions, will continue to guarantee helpless prey to depraved mass killers.

Question Four:
What types of new legislation, if any, are desirable to help make schools and college campuses safer places?

The only new legislation I could see would be concealed carry reform, that would open self-protection and protection-of-others options to more responsible adults in what are now gun-free zones. It is understood that force can only successfully be met by countervailing force; thus, "gun-free zones" become in essence "protection-free zones." In sum, we need to legislate to rescind prohibitions against reasonable self-protection.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob
 
I have edited Post #8 to incorporate a correction based on input from Massad Ayoob.
 
One important aspect often ignored when recommending the Israeli model is that every able bodied adult in Israel serves two years of compulsory military service. Most of them see some sort of action during this period.

IIRC the "security" services employed in Peru, the Philippines and elsewhere were trained security with various levels of previous military or police experience.

One problem I have with the idea of arming teachers (not ALLOWING teachers who are gun owners to carry on campus) is that a large portion of teachers are not pro-gun. You're asking someone who is opposed ot firearms to carry one and get sufficient training in order to be able to respond to a violent encounter.
 
Mas Said,

except of course the armed option would be limited to carefully-selected and trained adults in the supervised security program. Armed protection must already be in place, rather than reactively summoned.
Click to expand...

Thats why Grand pa's like me should not be ignored but rather encouraged to volunteer. I can put together a trained group now.
Armed role models, who can protect and interact with kids, and have fun doing it.
And if things go bad the mental defective perp would have failed in the victim selection process.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top