How do you feel about guns that may have been used for evil?
- Thread starter RKBABob
- Start date
- Status
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
The Nazi swastika represents a dark period in German history, and it means a lot of things to the people who fell under its influence.
So does the Confederate battle flag...aka "The Southern Cross"...and though I'm not one of those people who have a problem with it, I respect the opinions of those who do, even though it had nothing to do with oppression. I still own an 1862-pattern Richmond rifled musket, though. I also own an 1863 Remington "Zouave" rifle that was slated to be issued to Union soldiers during the same conflict. I like rifles. I especially like well-made rifles that have a history...or replicas of the same. I very much like '98 Mausers. Damn fine rifles...even though they were the general issue arm of the German Army in WW2. Again...Not all German soldiers were Nazis.
It could probably be accurately stated that the American flag holds some bad mojo for the American Indian...particularly the Plains Indians. I also own an 1859-pattern Sharps Cavalry carbine...and will soon own an 1874 Sharps
Business Rifle...one of which represented the near-extinction of their life's blood...the American Bison.
It could go on and on...but the point is pretty clear. It wasn't symbols and weapons that brought shame and grief. It was the people who used them. Assigning "evil" to an artifact is exactly what our political enemies try to do when they try to make us believe that guns cause crime.
So does the Confederate battle flag...aka "The Southern Cross"...and though I'm not one of those people who have a problem with it, I respect the opinions of those who do, even though it had nothing to do with oppression. I still own an 1862-pattern Richmond rifled musket, though. I also own an 1863 Remington "Zouave" rifle that was slated to be issued to Union soldiers during the same conflict. I like rifles. I especially like well-made rifles that have a history...or replicas of the same. I very much like '98 Mausers. Damn fine rifles...even though they were the general issue arm of the German Army in WW2. Again...Not all German soldiers were Nazis.
It could probably be accurately stated that the American flag holds some bad mojo for the American Indian...particularly the Plains Indians. I also own an 1859-pattern Sharps Cavalry carbine...and will soon own an 1874 Sharps
Business Rifle...one of which represented the near-extinction of their life's blood...the American Bison.
It could go on and on...but the point is pretty clear. It wasn't symbols and weapons that brought shame and grief. It was the people who used them. Assigning "evil" to an artifact is exactly what our political enemies try to do when they try to make us believe that guns cause crime.
IndianaBoy
Member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2005
- Messages
- 1,551
I wouldn't mind having a weapon that had fought in an number of wars.
In fact, I would prefer a Garand that had some Omaha beach sand in it. Fascinating piece of history, a link to the brave men who carried them. That fact that it helped liberate the concentration camps doesn't hurt.
So it killed some Nazis.... so what? It's a machine. It doesn't have a soul, good or evil.
In fact, I would prefer a Garand that had some Omaha beach sand in it. Fascinating piece of history, a link to the brave men who carried them. That fact that it helped liberate the concentration camps doesn't hurt.
So it killed some Nazis.... so what? It's a machine. It doesn't have a soul, good or evil.
rockinrussky
Member
Having bought a 91/30 Mosin at a gun show, I felt more irony than anything else. A vast majority of these rifles were originally manufactured to spread the Communist power across the world... whereas now its used to serve as a capitalist tool for trading in the western free market. Ahh, if only they knew 
Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are...... less'n yer a PETA member what just tho'd red paint on a biker........
The idea that inanimate objects are good or evil is the root of HOPLOPHOBIA. It is the only (note I did not say rational) explanation of the popularity of gun control....
Autolycus
Member
I dont care.
If we start to impart mythical status on guns then we are buying into stupidity.
If we start to impart mythical status on guns then we are buying into stupidity.
denfoote
Member
I have a Makarov that reportedly belonged to a mobster.
Professor K
Member
I have a Gew 88, and it has writing on the stock, and looks like it saw battle. Whoever has the AK with "ninja" written on the stock, I want that badly. I like weapons with history, even bad history.
I do get vibes from some inanimate objects, too, but usually vibe alone isnt enough to make me not buy something. If the history was a bad history based on how bad the product was, ie, a car that got into a crash and killed the occupants, because the brakes didnt work and the car stopped steering, then I likely would not buy it, because it could get me hurt someday.
I wouldnt have a problem buying, say, a gun that was used by a crackhead to shoot another crackhead from a police auction, because I know I'm not gonna use it to kill innocent people, and it didnt magically posess the user to go shoot someone else.
I'd also like to have guns used for famous crime, too, because it's historical. It'd be a showpiece, owning a gun used by John Dillinger, or Oswald's Carcano rifle, or even (I'll prolly catch some flak for this) guns used in more recent stuff, like Columbine. Why? To preserve history, I guess. Bad history is still history, and while it shouldnt be glorified, at the same time, it shouldnt be never talked about. Maybe it's morbid, but they're future historical artifacts, and someone has to preserve them. Even in the case of a gun used by crackheads or drug dealers, in the future, that gun will just be an artifact of Prohibition II, just as Dillingers pistols and stuff are worth many thousands of dollars, there will be guns around from now that will be worth lots of money/museum space in a few decades.
Oh, by the way, most of the AK kits that arent in super new rearsenaled condition or whatever, and look like they were buried for years, likely were. A lot of the AK kits are from Serbia, especially the really beat up Yugos. A lot are actually from mass graves. Ever wonder why there's dirt in the barrel? Rifles in a warehouse wont get that dirty...
Lots of soldiers were just thrown into big huge mass graves, rifles and all, and now people are looking for stuff to salvage on all the battlefields of Yugoslavia. So they find the old rifles, they dont really need them, and rather than melting them down for a few cents worth of scrap metal, they send them to Century Arms, and Century cuts the reciever in pieces, and sends it to America, where it'll sell for 100 dollars, and also further 2a by having more guns. The mass grave thing probably does not apply to cosmolined rifles, but still, anything Yugo, unless it's very very good looking, it's my opinion it's probably seen conflict.
I've heard tons of stories about people getting wierd stuff on AK kits, like 90210 and ninja turtles stickers, I heard one guy got a piece of scalp with hair stuck to the gas chamber of his cheap Romanian AK kit, he also said all the parts were filled with dirt.
http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=4&f=51&t=100289&page=1
There's a good thread about Yugo AK kits and some of the interesting stuff people have found on them. Here's some quotes from the thread.
I do get vibes from some inanimate objects, too, but usually vibe alone isnt enough to make me not buy something. If the history was a bad history based on how bad the product was, ie, a car that got into a crash and killed the occupants, because the brakes didnt work and the car stopped steering, then I likely would not buy it, because it could get me hurt someday.
I wouldnt have a problem buying, say, a gun that was used by a crackhead to shoot another crackhead from a police auction, because I know I'm not gonna use it to kill innocent people, and it didnt magically posess the user to go shoot someone else.
I'd also like to have guns used for famous crime, too, because it's historical. It'd be a showpiece, owning a gun used by John Dillinger, or Oswald's Carcano rifle, or even (I'll prolly catch some flak for this) guns used in more recent stuff, like Columbine. Why? To preserve history, I guess. Bad history is still history, and while it shouldnt be glorified, at the same time, it shouldnt be never talked about. Maybe it's morbid, but they're future historical artifacts, and someone has to preserve them. Even in the case of a gun used by crackheads or drug dealers, in the future, that gun will just be an artifact of Prohibition II, just as Dillingers pistols and stuff are worth many thousands of dollars, there will be guns around from now that will be worth lots of money/museum space in a few decades.
Oh, by the way, most of the AK kits that arent in super new rearsenaled condition or whatever, and look like they were buried for years, likely were. A lot of the AK kits are from Serbia, especially the really beat up Yugos. A lot are actually from mass graves. Ever wonder why there's dirt in the barrel? Rifles in a warehouse wont get that dirty...
Lots of soldiers were just thrown into big huge mass graves, rifles and all, and now people are looking for stuff to salvage on all the battlefields of Yugoslavia. So they find the old rifles, they dont really need them, and rather than melting them down for a few cents worth of scrap metal, they send them to Century Arms, and Century cuts the reciever in pieces, and sends it to America, where it'll sell for 100 dollars, and also further 2a by having more guns. The mass grave thing probably does not apply to cosmolined rifles, but still, anything Yugo, unless it's very very good looking, it's my opinion it's probably seen conflict.
I've heard tons of stories about people getting wierd stuff on AK kits, like 90210 and ninja turtles stickers, I heard one guy got a piece of scalp with hair stuck to the gas chamber of his cheap Romanian AK kit, he also said all the parts were filled with dirt.
http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=4&f=51&t=100289&page=1
There's a good thread about Yugo AK kits and some of the interesting stuff people have found on them. Here's some quotes from the thread.
doberman
Member
Guns are amoral objects period. Only the actions of men are to be judged to be moral or immoral.
God does not judge inanimate objects and I don't either.
I feel I have a moral obligation to use all of my guns for good and just purposes regardless of where it came from or it's past.
I was willed a WWI era 1911 from my father who purchased it from a close friend of his whose son committed suicide with it in the late 70's. Stricken with grief his friend just couldn't "have it in the house anymore".
Before that terrible incident, that 1911 was a cherished family heirloom carried over by his grandfather that saw combat with it in Europe.
You decide. Is that gun evil or not? I don't think so.
It sits in my safe to this day, niether "evil" nor "good", and I don't lose a wink of sleep over it knowing it is in good hands.
God does not judge inanimate objects and I don't either.
I feel I have a moral obligation to use all of my guns for good and just purposes regardless of where it came from or it's past.
I was willed a WWI era 1911 from my father who purchased it from a close friend of his whose son committed suicide with it in the late 70's. Stricken with grief his friend just couldn't "have it in the house anymore".
Before that terrible incident, that 1911 was a cherished family heirloom carried over by his grandfather that saw combat with it in Europe.
You decide. Is that gun evil or not? I don't think so.
It sits in my safe to this day, niether "evil" nor "good", and I don't lose a wink of sleep over it knowing it is in good hands.
Working Man
Member
Sure would..... the more souls on it the longer I live.
As was stated earlier..... my wallet may have money used to buy drugs,
sex, and even a hit. Hell some of it may have even paid a politicians salary.
As was stated earlier..... my wallet may have money used to buy drugs,
sex, and even a hit. Hell some of it may have even paid a politicians salary.
RKBABob
Member
I did not say milsurp guns are evil.
I simply asked if it would bother anyone to find out that their collector's piece was used that way.
I did not say a gun was anything other than a tool.
I only asked if it would bother you to own a tool that was once misused.
I did not say that milsurps should be banned.
I just asked if anyone would be bothered if a piece had a "bad" history.
Please, loosen your tinfoil hats a bit so the circulation comes back to your brain.
I am not Sarah Brady, and this is not a conspiracy by the U.N. to take your Mosin Nagants.
I did not say that a "used" gun could become evil.
I know its an inanimate object. I never said otherwise.
I did not say its wrong to own such guns.
I just happen not to want certain guns, say ones manufactured under the Nazi regime, in my collection.
Oh my gosh! RKBABob doesn't want to own Hitler's personal sidearm!!! He must be an anti!
MODS, please put this thread out of its misery.
I simply asked if it would bother anyone to find out that their collector's piece was used that way.
I did not say a gun was anything other than a tool.
I only asked if it would bother you to own a tool that was once misused.
I did not say that milsurps should be banned.
I just asked if anyone would be bothered if a piece had a "bad" history.
Please, loosen your tinfoil hats a bit so the circulation comes back to your brain.
I am not Sarah Brady, and this is not a conspiracy by the U.N. to take your Mosin Nagants.
I did not say that a "used" gun could become evil.
I know its an inanimate object. I never said otherwise.
I did not say its wrong to own such guns.
I just happen not to want certain guns, say ones manufactured under the Nazi regime, in my collection.
Oh my gosh! RKBABob doesn't want to own Hitler's personal sidearm!!! He must be an anti!
MODS, please put this thread out of its misery.
Last edited:
Pepper46
Member
How do you feel about using a hammer that has smashed a thumb?
Same goes for a firearm. It isn't the tool, it is the user. How do you know whether that civil war pistol was used by North or South? With out personal knowledge of course.
I would give a M1 Garand a special place in my home, knowing that it was used to protect my freedoms, or any other US weapon for that matter.
Same goes for a firearm. It isn't the tool, it is the user. How do you know whether that civil war pistol was used by North or South? With out personal knowledge of course.
I would give a M1 Garand a special place in my home, knowing that it was used to protect my freedoms, or any other US weapon for that matter.
Vitamin G
Member
I own a 1943 Garand, which very likely saw much action.
The gun itself isn't good or evil, but the actions of which it was able to be a part of commands my respect, and so it gets a place of honor above my television. Sometimes, when the lights are low and the program or sitcom is crappy, i just stare at it, and wish we could have a conversation about the things its seen, and the men who cared for it, even if just for five minutes. I can't say it doesn't bother me, but it doesn't bother me in a bad way.
Kinda the way that Jenny McCarthy would get me bothered...
The gun itself isn't good or evil, but the actions of which it was able to be a part of commands my respect, and so it gets a place of honor above my television. Sometimes, when the lights are low and the program or sitcom is crappy, i just stare at it, and wish we could have a conversation about the things its seen, and the men who cared for it, even if just for five minutes. I can't say it doesn't bother me, but it doesn't bother me in a bad way.
Kinda the way that Jenny McCarthy would get me bothered...
jefnvk
Member
Whats wrong with a PPK?
Joe Demko
Member
I don't want any Nazi or Bolshevik guns. I'm not into keeping souveniers of murderers. The guns themselves are inanimate objects and have no intrinsic value beyond being guns. Here's the thing: they don't interest me as guns and their historical provenance disgusts me. I don't want Jeffrey Dahmer's butcher knife or David Berkowitz's Charter Arms .44 either.
RKBABob
Member
Absolutely nothing. Its a fine little pistol. I included it in the poll because it is the only gun I could think of that saw extensive use in the European theatre during WWII, and is still manufactured today.
From WikiPedia:
Of course, the PPK became really cool again when it was featured as the issued sidearm of James Bond, 007! It remains a popular gun today, especially in the Good Ol' US ofA, where more PPK's are sold than anywhere else on Earth.
With that said, I'd love a new one... but would NOT want a milsurp version with Nazi proof marks.
RKBABob
Member
Thanks, Joe. That's how I feel about the subject...
History keeps me from falling in love with some milsurp firearms. (Now if I could only figure out why some people act like I just kicked the Pope for saying so... then I'd be happy).
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Bob...We understand what you asked, but you sorta left the thread open to the way the discussion drifted, given the present strategies and tactics of the emenies of 2A/RKBA. If you'd included the disclaimers that you posted above, it might not have drifted quite that far off the original question.
I'll go ahead and vote NO. Owning a gun with a history wouldn't bother me at all. Many collectors actively search for such weapons...and for many of them...the more notorious/nefarious/jaded the history, the better.
Anyway as per your request:
Your wish is my command.
I'll go ahead and vote NO. Owning a gun with a history wouldn't bother me at all. Many collectors actively search for such weapons...and for many of them...the more notorious/nefarious/jaded the history, the better.
Anyway as per your request:
Your wish is my command.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Closed
On request of the original pollster.
On request of the original pollster.
- Status
