How do you legally get a machine gun?

[GuyWithQuestions]

So there's been all this talk about how we have our rights and that machine guns should continue to be available to non law enforcement civilians. Gunfacts says that only 2 unjustified homicides have been committed by legally owned machine guns since the 1930s when they've been heavily regulated, and one of them was a police officer who killed someone. So I was thinking that it makes sense to exercise your rights. Not that I'd want one for a while, since they're expensive, but how do you get a machine gun legally? I'd want it for fun at the range, firearms' main purpose is recreation not trouble, and also since I have a concealed firearm's permit, could I legally carry it around for self-defense? I'll have to keep it locked up a lot because I'm at college with roommates, unless if I needed to carry it around. I live in Utah and on their .gov website on firearms it says about machine guns "It is lawful to possess, purchase, or sell a machine gun that is legally registered and possessed in compliance with all federal laws and regulations." I take it that that means there's no special state laws on machine guns and Utah only cares about federal laws?

So, if I want to exercise my human rights, how do you legally get one? You have to buy one that was legally manufactured/made it into this country before 1986, correct? There's a $200 transfer fee? Do you have to get some recommendation from a police officer saying that you won't be a nuisance with it and that you'll need one? Does the FBI check just to make sure you haven't committed any felonies, or do they also make sure you have no speeding tickets and stuff like that? Is the FBI check any different than when you submitted your fingerprints when getting your concealed firearms permit?

I heard that there was a study that at long distance, semi-automatics are more accurate, but that at close range fully-automatics are more likely to hit it's target? And most self-defense situations are close up.

 

[ArmedBear]

Get to know a politician or a guy high up in the ATF. Get signed up as a reserve LEO for the Forest Service or something. Use your connections to get a full-auto as a Federal LEO.

Rumor has it, that even works in states where NFA guns are effectively banned.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Long list of ?, but one at a time....

I'll skip the carrying it part, you're gonna need a lawyer for that one, but I'd say no way would that be a good idea.



So, if I want to exercise my human rights, how do you legally get one? You have to buy one that was legally manufactured/made it into this country before 1986, correct?

Yes, before May 86, and transferable


There's a $200 transfer fee?

There is a $200 tax to be paid to ATF. A dealer may charge an additional fee.

Do you have to get some recommendation from a police officer saying that you won't be a nuisance with it and that you'll need one?

No. You need to get a form signed by the Chief Law Enforcement guy in your area, usually police chief or sheriff. This states that they see no reason you shouldn't have the weapon. They don't have to sign but if they don't there are other ways to get it done. You don't have to prove "need".

Does the FBI check just to make sure you haven't committed any felonies, or do they also make sure you have no speeding tickets and stuff like that?

Speeding tickets don't count, but yes a background check is done.

Is the FBI check any different than when you submitted your fingerprints when getting your concealed firearms permit?

Who knows what they do but it's likely as detailed if not more.

I heard that there was a study that at long distance, semi-automatics are more accurate, but that at close range fully-automatics are more likely to hit it's target?

Full auto is not inherently more accurate, but yeah since you are "spraying" bullets you might be more likely to hit. You may also be more likely to miss and hit an innocent.


If your plan is to buy a full auto weapon for self defense you might give that some thought. You are going to spend probably, at a minimum, $6000 for a passable weapon, likely much more. If you actually use that weapon in self defense it will most certainly be taken from you as evidence, and returned when and in what condition who knows.

These days full auto is for collector purposes only. Using them for defensive purposes is probably not a good idea unless you receive some pretty serious training first because of the liabilities involved as well as the perception you create on the stand at your trial. And you'll be on trial if you use a machinegun for self defense, you can bet on that.

 

[gym]

A lot has to do with where you live, in FL, I know a few guys who have legal full auto wepons. It's just a different license, and it costs more than a regular permit, other than that From the guys that asked me to go shooting with them, they just were regular guys. I think it's a series 3, and there is another for silenced weapons. Which when I moved here 15 years ago, coming from a state that it was almost impossible to get a carry, threw me for a loop. One of the requirements is you have to have a corporation, I have no idea why.

 

[El Tejon]

Utah, huh? Ask our favorite stool sitters at Fuzzy Bunny: http://www.fbmginc.com/

Short answer:
1. make application on Form 4
2. send in application for tax stamp (Form 4)
3. wait, wait, now wait some more
4. stool sitter gets off stool (eventually) and calls, acting like he is doing you a huge favor by calling you and blessing you with his presence.
5. get CLEO sign off

Something like that. Your friendly NFA dealer can walk you through.

 

[Mike OTDP]

OK. Let me walk you through the National Firearms Act of 1934 as it works in practice. We'll assume that you live in a state that does not prohibit you from owning NFA items.

You start by finding a NFA dealer in your state. He's got a Special Occupation Taxpayer stamp - a rider on his FFL that allows him to deal in Class 3 sutff.

Then, you find the gun you want. Bring BIG money. The bargain-basement MG, the lowly Mac-11, will run you at least $3,000. Uzis cost $7,000. A prewar Thompson? Twenty grand. Oh, you get to pay this in advance.

The dealer who has what you are buying applies to ATF to transfer it to your in-state dealer. This is running 3 weeks these days.

Now you start the process of getting the gun transferred to you. This requires the filing of a Form 4 with ATF. You get your picture taken, get two sets of fingerprints, and take the package to your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer. Your local dealer should be able to give you pointers as to who to talk to. The CLEO may or may not sign, and may or may not run a background check himself. Maryland is considered an NFA-friendly state precisely because they will sign off on a Form 4 without you groveling...even if they do require a separate set of finderprints and run an independent background check which takes aobut 3 weeks.

Then you send your signed Form 4 and Federal fingerprint cards (in duplicate), as well as a check for $200 to ATF. These days, it takes about 3-4 months to do your first transfer...much better than the Bad Old Days, when it could take 8-10 months.

Finally, you get the Form 4 back with the tax stamp. You go to your NFA dealer, pick up your new toy, and try to find a place to shoot it. Allow me to suggest buying a suppressor. An MG shooter really should keep a low profile.

Try www.subguns.com for more information.

 

[ready4shtf]

I have a machine gun. I just saved my money for a while, and when I had enough, found one for sale and filled out the transfer form. It's nothing mystical. Getting the $$ is the only hard part.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

How likely is it that you'd get one?

How likely are they to allow you to get one if you have the money and file everything? Is it close to "shall issue", "may issue", LA county in California's "may issue" not likely chance? If the Sheriff or whoever doesn't even know me, do they just say that they see no reason why such and such individual shouldn't have one, or do they have to write down that they see it's quite important that you absolutely need one and "this is why"?

 

[TexasRifleman]

You reading the posts here? That's all been answered already.

 

[RNB65]

Setup a living trust and you can bypass the CLEO sign-off all together. That's what I'd do if I could afford NFA items.

Take a look at TFL. They have an NFA forum which may be more informative than THR.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/
.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

TexasRifleman,

One said

Get to know a politician or a guy high up in the ATF. Get signed up as a reserve LEO for the Forest Service or something. Use your connections to get a full-auto as a Federal LEO.

while others said no need to prove need while just need to show there's no reason why you shouldn't have one. I just found that confusing. Also, if someone has to make a recommendation saying that they see "no reason why I shouldn't", how well would they have to know me first? That's why I was wondering about how likely it is to get one if you have the money. I was a little confused, sorry.

 

[ctdonath]

Short version:

Find a dealer selling what you want and you have $$$ for. He'll walk you thru the process, which (so long as legal in your jurisdiction, and you can get the "CLEO signoff" part) is pretty simple.

Just be aware it's expensive. Ballpark numbers are: $3000 entry level, $6000 for something decent, $15000 for what you actually want, >$20000 for premium.

 

[CountGlockula]

Become a SWAT.

 

[1KPerDay]

If you live in SLC you might have a tiny issue getting the sheriff to sign/approve your paperwork. Elsewhere it's likely not an issue. The utah county sheriff green-lighted mine a few years ago.

If you MUST have one of the new-fangled autoguns, you will have to either become an NFA dealer or law enforcement. As a reg'lar guy you can own any full-auto made before 1986, and suppressors for any gun.

Yes, the background check/paperwork is more involved than buying a regular gun. You'll need to get fingerprinted and photographed at your local cop shop. Best advice is to talk to a reputable "class III" dealer and folow their instructions.

Sell your car and buy a Tommy gun, then let me shoot it.

 

[TexasRifleman]

That's why I was wondering about how likely it is to get one if you have the money. I was a little confused, sorry.

Ahh. Well I think you can file the posts recommending you to get some kind of "LE status" in order to get a machinegun under just chain yanking.....

It's really a very simple process, just takes a wheelbarrow full of money to start it.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

1KPerDay,

I live in Cache County, Utah. Do you think there would be no problem there?

 

[Duncan223]

Avoid the CLEO sign-off by forming a Trust or a Corporation, purchase the weapon through either.

 

[1KPerDay]

I live in Cache County, Utah. Do you think there would be no problem there?

I doubt it. Couldn't hurt to ask. Talk to a local NFA dealer and see what they say. My dealer recommended I put "collecting rare and exotic firearms for investment purposes" on my 'reason' for buying on the paperwork.

 

[mljdeckard]

The fbmg guys are our friends in here, Impact out in the industrial park in Ogden is closer. (I have mixed feelings about their staff.) impactguns.com

As for the question if they are more or less accurate, in the army, I think I have used the burst mode a grand total of twice. On the range, I never feel like shooting more than semi. I do however, tell my soldiers, that the more times you can hit the target the better, so for closer in work, I tell them to use burst. Using a rifle in full auto is less controllable than most people realize. That's why the army has decided to use medium and heavy machine guns for the heavy work. Most of the time you are wasting ammo.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I tell them to use burst. Using a rifle in full auto is less controllable than most people realize. That's why the army has decided to use medium and heavy machine guns for the heavy work. Most of the time you are wasting ammo.

Yet, it is not as hard as people think. The reason the military went to the 3-round burst is because instead of spending the time and money to properly train the troops in trigger control, they decided to go with a cheap mechanical fix. Then they adopted the worst (a ratchet) method of getting the gun to accomplish bursts. That way, when you do shoot on semi-auto, you get a different trigger pull for each shot.

When I take my M16 to the range, there are always folks that want to try it out. Some people that have never fired a full auto weapon actually do pretty well keeping it on target. Investing some time and ammo, virtually anyone could be accurate with it.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Just a little clarification from an NFA window-shopping addict:

Mac-10s are generally running around $4000 now folks.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

What's a good concealed carry fully automatic?

Do they have any good ones for concealed carry, since I have a concealed carry permit? Is there such thing as selective fire concealed carry piece where you can go between semi-auto and maybe "burst mode" of three shots, and fully auto would be a nice option too? I think it would be useful to have a selective fire concealed carry firearm. Maybe I'm just wishing too much, but I was wondering?

 

[mljdeckard]

If you narrow the search to select-fire, concealable weapons, what comes to mind is an MP-5 variant, and they're starting at $14,000 or so.

I would lean to the counsel of Massad Ayoob. He wrote a piece a couple of years ago, to the effect of, "If you use a fully-automatic weapon in a defensive situation, EVEN IF the weapon was legal, and the shooting was justified, the odds are overwhelming that you will be prosecuted for homicide." It's just too much of a stretch for prosecutors to believe you weren't looking for trouble if you used full-auto. Keep in mind, the reason full-autos are available on the basis they are, is for collectors. It's implied that we have conceded registration and a higher level of accountability for these weapons, because we won't be using them for regular day-today use. Maybe the Cache CO DA would be on your side, but I doubt the SL CO DA would be.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

In Florida, CCW of a machinegun is prohibited.

 

[SG Merc]

The best FA CCW would be a select fire pistol such as the Beretta M93, or one of the Glocks. You would have to of course find a pre '86 though.

The novelty of carrying around an M11 or MP5K everyday would quickly wear off as you got tired of the bulkiness.