How do you make a gun not a gun anymore?

[EddieCoyle]

An acquaintance gave me an old High Standard autoloading shotgun. It still looks OK, but has a series of problems to numerous to list here.

For the heck of it, I took it to a local smith and asked, "What should I do to this?"
He said, "Make a lamp out of it."

He was joking of course but I got to thinking.... It would make a pretty cool floor lamp. I bet I could even figure a way to turn the trigger into an on/off switch.

My question is: Is there anything I need to do from a legal standpoint to make this not a gun anymore? From a functional standpoint, there's I lot I can and will do to ensure that it's never used as a shotgun again, but are there legal requirements?

 

[mp510]

Legally, for it to not be a gun, you would need to render it permenantely inoperable, by destroying the reciever.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I don't think there are any legal requirements so long as you still own it and are going to keep it.

Now, if you were going to make several and sell them then the receiver has to be cut in a way that satisfies the ATF (destroying the gun). You could then use a fake receiver in it's place.

If you're going to keep it then there should be no issues.

That being said, I am not a lawyer and don't claim to be.

 

[Weimadog]

I bet I could even figure a way to turn the trigger into an on/off switch.

This just seems wrong. Regularly using the lamp would be teaching somebody, through repetition, that's it's no big deal to reach out and pull a trigger.

Of course, if you're sure of what the light is illiminating, and what's behind, it might be o.k.

Only illuminate what you're willing to destroy.

 

[BigRobT]

Couldn't one weld the receiver closed ??

 

[Puppy]

You could probably render it inoperable by welding a piece of steel in the chamber so that it would no longer be able to chamber any ammunition.

I doubt the ATF would care much about someone who de-mils (renders inoperable) a firearm in order to make a lamp out of it, its the firearms that work that the ATF takes an interest in.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I doubt the ATF would care much about someone who de-mils (renders inoperable) a firearm in order to make a lamp out of it, its the firearms that work that the ATF takes an interest in.

Don't be so sure. Sarco, Inc, sells de-milled Hi-Powers that have been modified for training purposes. The firing pin hole in the slide is welded closed, the chamber has a pin through it, and the barrel locking cam has been removed and replaced by a round steel dowel. These guns are very much inoperative, but they can only be sold to or transferred through an FFL.

To de-mill a pistol the frame has to be torch (not saw) cut into at least three pieces. I imagine the requirements for long guns and shotties are similar. Just rendering inoperable isn't enough. The only way to make it not a gun is to convert it into a pile of slag.

 

[outofbattery]

You'll be fine from a legal POV as long as you store your lamp with an approved trigger lock

 

[sm]

Well, according to the Media if you have more than one gun - you now have an arsenal. I'd get another gun that does not work for little monies and convert that way...


Seriously - I would:

1) Contact a High Standard person that works on these to see if he can make it work. [some gunsmiths specialize, some HS shooters are great smiths themselves]
2) Perhaps someone will purchase it for parts
Or Better yet-
3) Place an ad in For sale forum here on THR - stating honestly the gun needs repair - and see if someone here may need it for parts and such.

 

[aguyindallas]

Gunsmith school donation?

 

[GunFixer]

You can weld the bolt shut, fill the bbl with lead. All kinds of things that will make the gun permantly non-functioning.

 

[deadin]

I believe the BATFE has a specified set of rules as to what must be done to "de-mil" a firearm. It may even include an inspection after the fact to make sure everything was done according to regs.

Dean

 

[EddieCoyle]

I should clarify. I already have a working one of these; this was a freebie that someone gave me. The bore is badly rusted, the forestock is good but I'll replace it with the cracked one from my working gun, the aluminum magazine tube is stripped (both the threads on the outside of the tube and the screw hole where the forend cap attaches), and the magazine follower is hopelessly jammed inside the tube. It is a wreck, but from the outside, at a distance, it doesn't look bad. I plan to pull any decent internal parts out of it as spares for my working gun, which is not that great of a shotgun to begin with. It's the one I take hunting when I expect bad weather, and few duck sightings.

Seriously - I would:

1) Contact a High Standard person that works on these to see if he can make it work. [some gunsmiths specialize, some HS shooters are great smiths themselves]
2) Perhaps someone will purchase it for parts
Or Better yet-
3) Place an ad in For sale forum here on THR - stating honestly the gun needs repair - and see if someone here may need it for parts and such.

My local smith said that I'm looking at $300 if he can find cheap enough parts. After that, I'll have a second copy of working $100 gun that I don't like that much anyway.

I believe the BATFE has a specified set of rules as to what must be done to "de-mil" a firearm. It may even include an inspection after the fact to make sure everything was done according to regs.

I rigorously searched the BATF site for this description but could not find it. The closest I came was a description for how to deactivate a machine gun, in the machine gun section.

Gunsmith school donation?

I want to make a lamp out of it. If I just wanted to get rid of it, I would burn the stock, then fire up the torch and cut it into little pieces.

Maybe I should just wait for the Boston gun buyback program they're talking about. I'll use the Walmart gift certificate to buy ammo.

 

[Taurus 66]

An acquaintance gave me an old High Standard autoloading shotgun. It still looks OK, but has a series of problems to numerous to list here.

Do some of these problems already render the gun #1 - inoperable or #2 - dangerous to shoot? If the shotgun is safe, why not have a shotgun lamp? Just remove the firing pin and keep the shells out of the gun and locked up, or does this branch of government that shouldn't exist, AKA - ATF, have something to say about my idea?

 

[deadin]

I don't believe the BATFE would have any problems with this idea. However, some local jurisdictions have laws concerning leaving an unsecured "firearm" out where "the children" could get at it.

Dean

 

[txgho1911]

Fill the Barrel

Fill the barrel with molten platnum. Top it with lead. never let the family insurance fund run out of light bulbs.

 

[Vex]

Just remove the firing pin. It's really that simple.

 

[JohnKSa]

Making the gun inoperable does NOT make it legally cease to be a firearm.

Remove the receiver and thoroughly destroy it (multiple torch cuts) or turn it in to the local police. Make a new receiver from wood and paint it to match the rest of the metal work and reassemble the pertinent parts to the new receiver. Remember, the internal parts aren't really necessary any more. A model shop should have some ideas for paint that will make the receiver look right.

 

[Vex]

It's a shotgun. If you turn it into a lamp, it makes it a lamp that you have to be 18 to purchase. We're not talking about turning a Ma Deuce into a lamp. I deal with this all the time.... anytime we get a gun off someone, it has to be sent into the crime lab to determine if it's operational. Not operational, then it's not CCW or mishandling of a firearm. Mind you, this is Ohio law, but the ATF wouldn't have anything to do with it.

Basically, whether it's a lamp or a real gun, the same rules apply as to other shotguns.... don't sell it illegally, don't transfer it to a felon, don't take it across state lines if the other state prohibits it. Why is it such a big deal whether it's not a real gun anymore or not?

I just think this is a non-issue.

 

[JohnKSa]

I just think this is a non-issue.

That's probably why you didn't start this thread...

 

[Vex]

Heh.

Okay, seriously though, I'm curious. From a legal standpoint, based on Federal regulations and Massachusetts law (because this is the original author's location), what would be the ramifications of having a shotgun lamp that didn't have a firing pin, therefore rendering it inoperable?

 

[JohnKSa]

Since it's still legally a firearm, any laws applicable to firearms would still be in effect. That would include any laws regarding storage, transporting, transfer, possession, ownership.

Here's some stuff summarized from www.packing.org

If the magazine holds more than five shells or is convertible to hold more than five shells, that combined with the fact that it's an autoloader makes it a large capacity shotgun and places it under further state restrictions. It also appears that if it is a large capacity shotgun, a MA citizen would have to continue to renew a "Firearms Identification Card" every 4 years at a cost of $100 in order to possess a large capacity shotgun.

I think I got that right--maybe an MA resident can chime in with more accurate/complete information.

 

[nomadboi]

I asked basically this same question a couple years back, since I wanted to use a shotgun for theatrical or film use without the legal issues, and didn't care if it could fire for most shots- just wanted something that could still cycle dummy shells, and an old 870 is cheaper than the fancy but fragile toys that will do this.

Local police sent me to local BATF office, local BATF office sent me to BATF website, BATF website sent me to a phone number, phone number said we only take snail mail for our technology division now. So, I sent them a letter, and got my reply a couple months later: once a firearm, always a firearm, so no matter what I do to the original reciever, if it's still on there, it's still legally a firearm.

This answered two of my questions: One, nothing I could do easily would allow me to cheaply convert old guns to dummy guns.

Two: most local cops, and even local BATF agents, won't know the difference one way or the other, so it really depends on what mood they're in, how nice you are to them, and whether they're willing to give you the benefit of the doubt or not.

 

[Vex]

Here's what I found, according to Massachusetts law....

Chapter 140: Section 121. Firearms sales; definitions; antique firearms; application of law; exceptions

...

“Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured; provided, however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is: (i) constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun including, but not limited to, covert weapons that resemble key-chains, pens, cigarette-lighters or cigarette-packages; or (ii) not detectable as a weapon or potential weapon by x-ray machines commonly used at airports or walk- through metal detectors.

...

“Imitation firearm”, any weapon which is designed, manufactured or altered in such a way as to render it incapable of discharging a shot or bullet.

...

“Shotgun”, a weapon having a smooth bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 18 inches with an overall length equal to or greater than 26 inches, and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger.

The definitons of firearm and shotgun both contain provision that the weapon must be capable of discharging the shot or bullet. This is where the term "imitation firearm" comes into play.

In reference to Massachusetts law regarding storage of firearms, I quote:

Chapter 140: Section 131L. Weapons stored or kept by owner; inoperable by any person other than owner or lawfully authorized user; punishment


Section 131L. (a) It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner or other lawfully authorized user. For purposes of this section, such weapon shall not be deemed stored or kept if carried by or under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user.

At no place in that law does is state that the storage of firearms also applies to imitation firearms.

I conclude my research by reiterating my previous statements: Remove the firing pin, and in the eyes of Massachusetts law, the firearm is no longer operable and therefore classifies as an "imitation firearm." The receiver is only stated as a firearm in the eyes of the BATF, to which transfer and sales laws still apply for felons, violators of domestic violence, etc.

As long as the weapon is not sold, I don't see anywhere in the law where it is illegal to display or store in the open, and therefore under anyone's control, an imitation firearm.

Furthermore, this research also doesn't include any local laws. It only includes Massachusetts law.

Reference my research at http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/gl-140-toc.htm.

If you can find something in the laws that I'm not seeing regarding the definition of a firearm or shotgun, or the storage/display of imitation firearms, then props to you.

I would like to add a bit of a disclaimer and state that I am no expert on the subject of Massachusetts law... when in doubt, call a local attorney.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Making the gun inoperable does NOT make it legally cease to be a firearm. Remove the receiver and thoroughly destroy it (multiple torch cuts) or turn it in to the local police.

This is pretty much right on the money.

OK Folks, I talked to a local LEO (who's also an FFL holder). This guy has forgotten more about firearms laws than many of us will ever know. According to him, operable or not, as long as the gun has an intact receiver it is considered a firearm and is subject to all Federal laws. In other words, I'd have to transfer my lamp through an FFL.

I'm going to use the receiver as a pattern and cast a copy out of resin, then cut the receiver at least three times with a torch (to satisfy the Federal regs).