How do you teach someone new to guns about quality?

[Jack Ryan]

A buddy of mine once bought himself a new Remington M-700 rifle. Rather than telling him he’d made a mistake, I built him a ramrod to carry along on his hunting trips so that he could get the empty cases out of his rifle after its extractor broke.

I once offered to use my real "aught-six” to back up another buddy with his 25-06 while he was deer hunting. I told him that if I was there with my 30-06, he could rest assured that a deer he only wounded with his 25-06 wouldn’t get away.

I also tried to teach yet another buddy the proper terminology for all of the malfunctions he was going to have with the Taurus 9mm semi-auto he’d laid away. I told him that I’d heard Taurus was real good about honoring their warranties, but when he sent his pistol back to them, he was going to have to use the proper terminology for describing the malfunctions instead of just calling them all “jams.”

I don’t have any idea why I’ve never had a buddy for very long. My wife has been with me for 50 years, and she loves it when I point out her mistakes. I can tell she loves it by the way her jaws clench.

First step is to learn it for your self.

 

[Mike J]

As for the OP my wife has often told me that, "Just because something is true doesn't mean it has to be said." As much as I hate to admit it she is right. I generally don't disrespect other people's property. I have owned one Taurus. It was a PT 111 Millenium Pro G2. I didn't like the trigger & it had a weak blued finish. I decided I didn't like it & sold it to a friend. I wouldn't have sold it to a friend if I didn't know it would work.

I've never owned a Bryco, Jennings or Raven but most of what I've owned has worked. There is a difference between cheap & inexpensive. There is a time to buy what is nice & a time to buy what is good enough for the intended purpose. Oddly enough the gun purchased new I have had the most problem with was made by S&W. So the manufacturers name is not always a guarantee.

 

[crestoncowboy]

Back during that time I bought a M&P 2.0 40 Compact for $350 NIB.I also remember 2 days after I ordered it getting an E-mail with the same pistol with night sights for $300. I had already ordered so I ddin't renege. I remember wanting one of the Sig P-229 .40 LEO trade ins CDNN ran for a long time but I couldn't swing it right then. Deals were everywhere.

Cdnn actually ran the used 229 for 350 with night sights (usually expired) i believe, and the cpo for just under 400 but it had an extra mag and the bad Sig holster. I went with that one. Lol.

Eta. I shouldn't say bad holster... but not useful to most people. I don't know anyone who uses them

 

[Mike J]

Cdnn actually ran the used 229 for 350 with night sights (usually expired) i believe, and the cpo for just under 400 but it had an extra mag and the bad Sig holster. I went with that one. Lol.

Eta. I shouldn't say bad holster... but not useful to most people. I don't know anyone who uses them

I couldn't swing it right then (sometimes it stinks to be responsible). I don't know if I'll ever own a Sig P-series but I will shoot one. I'd just like to check one out.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I don't know if I'll ever own a Sig P-series but I will shoot one. I'd just like to check one out.

Around 2010 or so I found a hell of a deal on a p220 .45 for 700 and change. Drove 3 hours away to get it. During that same 40 sell off they were 450. Lol. Same gun. USA with German frame. They sure did tank in value.

 

[Autodidactic]

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Trade in 40s. Well documented. During the great 40 purge. Lol. I have 400 each for my 2 USP. I bought each of the guns i mentioned. Tried to get other guys too but they "couldn't afford it" alright they golf and drive vehicles with payment books and other wastes. Now they want to buy ammo from me.

Right, so used, police. Not new.


I’m all for people getting good used guns. The issue is newcomers don’t know what to look for.

 

[crestoncowboy]

Right, so used, police. Not new.


I’m all for people getting good used guns. The issue is newcomers don’t know what to look for.

If they would join a forum they would. Lol. I told several on here about the ammo. Posted some gun deals too. Even if it meant i don't get as much or what i wanted. Lol.

And any time your looking for a "quality gun" a police trade in is going to fit that. Or what the military carries. Im not one who intentionally buys whatever Delta, Seals, HRT, Gign, or Spetnaz carries. I'm not very tactical at all really, but if you want quality, majority of police nor large militaries don't make a habit of fielding junk. At least not outside of dire situations during wartime. And even good guns that have flaws (early Beretta 92, 1076, 320) show up pretty quick when that many People are using them.

 

[Bfh_auto]

winner? Pretty much the king of the hill now for budget guns. G2s and G3s are going for $200-$250 online. Even with a shipping and transfer thats still an unbelievable value. Lots in the $300-$400 range but taurus is undercutting everyone with the G3. They must be going after the Sccy market share. Pretty smart move. They should put out a simple reliable blowback 32/380 pocket gun around $100-125 and shake up the pocket gun market. Use modern polymer and steel... base it off something like the sw380 baby sigma. Probably wont be long until we see a rough rider, wrangler, sidekick competitor either being that 22 single action are so popular.

They have a spectrum 380. I was going out to buy a bodyguard. But I tested the Kimber, lcp380, bodyguard, and saw the spectrum. It actually shot where I was pointing. When I use the sights. I can hit a 3" bull at 30 yards.
It's now my boot gun.
The UL85 is another example I've had good results from.
Both are utilitarian guns I won't cry if I scratch.

I've learned to be a your money your choice type of guy. Just point out what is a common failure point to watch for. Cracked slide or frame on injection molded guns. Weak magazine springs etc.
My wife's Shield is known to eventually crack. It's supposed to be a "quality" gun...

 

[AlexanderA]

An appreciation of gun quality cannot be taught. It is acquired through experience.

 

[Autodidactic]

They have a spectrum 380. I was going out to buy a bodyguard. But I tested the Kimber, lcp380, bodyguard, and saw the spectrum. It actually shot where I was pointing. When I use the sights. I can hit a 3" bull at 30 yards.
It's now my boot gun.
The UL85 is another example I've had good results from.
Both are utilitarian guns I won't cry if I scratch.

I've learned to be a your money your choice type of guy. Just point out what is a common failure point to watch for. Cracked slide or frame on injection molded guns. Weak magazine springs etc.
My wife's Shield is known to eventually crack. It's supposed to be a "quality" gun...

What do you mean Shields are known to "eventually crack?" My Shield in 9 mm is not only 10 years old, it's been 100% reliable. It's the most reliable gun I own. Without a doubt, it's a quality gun.

 

[rust collector]

This is the first I have heard of Shields cracking. All guns will theoretically crack at some point, but tossing out such unsupported comments tends to poison the well and provides a good reason not to trust someone's estimate of quality.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I agree with those that say don't tell them anything unless asked for an honest opinion. Throughout my life, I've given the cheaper manufacturers a chance, mostly for cost savings at a particular time, but other times due to decent reviews. I'm at 50/50 with Taurus, for example. I have a PT-22 that I love dearly, while I couldn't get rid of a Taurus PT-111 Millennium fast enough. I find generally that people love Taurus's revolvers, along with their Beretta style autos, but I have neither. The expensive and or "high quality" types, seem to fare no better in my collection, as it all comes down to a personal choice. My stainless HKUSP45C stands idle in the safe, as it never rose to be my carry choice, which was it's intended purpose. You can offer an opinion, if asked, and simply wish them luck if they don't take your advice. They'll learn along the way like the rest of us. It's worked for me for decades.

 

[Bfh_auto]

What do you mean Shields are known to "eventually crack?" My Shield in 9 mm is not only 10 years old, it's been 100% reliable. It's the most reliable gun I own. Without a doubt, it's a quality gun.

All polymer guns eventually fail. Her's has been 100% reliable.
I saw cases of 40 Shields cracking after who knows how many rounds. I still bought one but eventually traded it to my brother because he needed a single stack and was broke.

 

[Autodidactic]

This is the first I have heard of Shields cracking. All guns will theoretically crack at some point, but tossing out such unsupported comments tends to poison the well and provides a good reason not to trust someone's estimate of quality.

Right, first time hearing that too. Sounds like a biased opinion.

My .32 ACP Tomcat, on the other, hand, is at risk of frame cracking, so I'm not blindly defensive here.

 

[Autodidactic]

An appreciation of gun quality cannot be taught. It is acquired through experience.

I think that's partly because the quality is often subtle, both in looks and form. Some is not easy to see, such as what the frame or slide is made out of. Third, the quality may only be demonstrable over time such as with how reliable and durable a firearm is over time with round count.

 

[Autodidactic]

All polymer guns eventually fail. Her's has been 100% reliable.
I saw cases of 40 Shields cracking after who knows how many rounds. I still bought one but eventually traded it to my brother because he needed a single stack and was broke.

Why did you single out Shields, when they don’t have a general reputation for that? 9 mm shields have zero reputation for that.

 

[MistWolf]

OMG. I'm going to start using this phrase in all sorts of scenarios.

How did you like the dinner?
Well, it wasn't as bad as a hundred rounds and a Taurus.

What do you think of [insert name of any politician here]?
Worse than a hundred rounds and a Taurus.

I don’t give many likes, but you earned it. Today, you are the Champion of the Internet.

 

[AlexanderA]

One indication of quality is that a gun has been officially adopted by a military. This is not a hard-and-fast rule, however, since militaries have occasionally adopted spectacular failures (the Chauchat?). On the other hand, military successes, such as the Sten or the Greasegun, are not thought of as "quality" in other contexts.

 

[Autodidactic]

One indication of quality is that a gun has been officially adopted by a military. This is not a hard-and-fast rule, however, since militaries have occasionally adopted spectacular failures (the Chauchat?). On the other hand, military successes, such as the Sten or the Greasegun, are not thought of as "quality" in other contexts.

I do think though a service gun is a good bet for newcomers, such as a Glock, Sig, or S&W M&P. They are vetted and likely to meet reasonable reliability standards, and be self defense capable.

But, as noted earlier that base layer of quality today means $500+ for a new handgun, unless we are talking micro .380’s. S&W jframes are now $499, for a basic 642/442.

Quality .22’s can be had for $3-400, but they aren’t usually encouraged for SD.

If someone can’t afford these ranges, an experienced friend should find them a quality used gun, or just buy a very basic shotgun.

 

[AlexanderA]

If someone can’t afford these ranges, an experienced friend should find them a quality used gun, or just buy a very basic shotgun.

Well, there's a case to be made for a nonquality gun, if that's all you can afford. After all, something is better than nothing. That was the theory behind the OSS Liberator pistol.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Why did you single out Shields, when they don’t have a general reputation for that? 9 mm shields have zero reputation for that.

I was making the point that I still bought one even though it can happen. Breakages after extended usage doesn't mean it's not a quality tool.
Hipoint is reliable. But isn't quality.

 

[Mike .45]

I honestly don't bother anymore. People learn to understand value and quality or they don't. It is one of those things that doesn't just apply to firearms.

Sometimes they do understand the difference and don't care anyway. Maybe they know they are never going to be a serious shooter.

It's like buying a new truck. Why should a guy who needs a truck to take yard waste to the dump once a year buy a 1 ton diesel when a Ranger or tacoma is all he needs?

Of course there is opposite side of that coin. I see tons of people with clapped out half tons doing things that require a 1 ton. And they do it over and over and just keep buying whatever is cheap. They don't understand the value/quality balance but the guy who bought a cheap 2WD Ranger does.

When a first time gun owner asks me what to get the answer is always the same. Glock 19. It does everything you will need and it will not let you down. If they start complaining about price I'll tell them to check Ruger or SA offerings. If they bring up anything else I just shrug and tell them they can buy whatever they would like but they asked for my opinion because they know I'm a gun guy and I gave it. Take it or leave it.

 

[Autodidactic]

Well, there's a case to be made for a nonquality gun, if that's all you can afford. After all, something is better than nothing. That was the theory behind the OSS Liberator pistol.

Well yes. If someone has nothing but can’t afford, get a Hipoint for $1-200. Or find a good deal on a used gun. Used shotguns can be cheap.

 

[CapnMac]

This winds up being an argument with no winners in any number of areas.

With the gearheads, it's about tools. By cheapo H and replace them when they break? Or, spend the ludicrous sums MAC or Snap-On want?

Professional or "Prosumer" in cameras/video gear. Or computers. Or audio equipment. Carpenters arguing over hammers. Electricians on the obvious superiority of Klein Tools [] On and on, with no solutions at all.

How do you learn? The Hard Way, typically. How do you teach? By example (but you'll want thick skin for having your specific example ignored, too).

Making the subjective objective is a difficult prospect. No matter what.

 

[Autodidactic]

This winds up being an argument with no winners in any number of areas.

With the gearheads, it's about tools. By cheapo H and replace them when they break? Or, spend the ludicrous sums MAC or Snap-On want?

Professional or "Prosumer" in cameras/video gear. Or computers. Or audio equipment. Carpenters arguing over hammers. Electricians on the obvious superiority of Klein Tools [] On and on, with no solutions at all.

How do you learn? The Hard Way, typically. How do you teach? By example (but you'll want thick skin for having your specific example ignored, too).

Making the subjective objective is a difficult prospect. No matter what.

To a degree yes, but in some of these cases you mentioned it isn’t subjective. Material sciences aren’t either. Engineers rely on things not being 100% subjective in building a bridge. Zmac is objectively less strong than steel, etc. Failure rates per round and other metrics for gun models aren’t purely subjective either.