How does one now defend (in a nutshell) owning AR-15s?

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https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...americas-deadliest-school-massacre-180963355/

Everything a smart fellow with internet access needs to make a bomb is still available with no waiting period, no background checks, no qualms from anyone. There is no way to ban access to it all, too many combinations.

The evidence was there on this one, the FBI was told plainly that it might happen with this fellow, and they did nothing. If the antis really cared, they would be going after the FBI., not pushing more people control.
 
I'll risk being skewered too.

This is a cultural issue on many different levels and imo a pretty significant part of it falls on us in quite a few areas.

We must engage and educate instead of saying leave me alone (which helped get us here) or replying with quipy sound bites (that makes us sound petty or parnoid), making fun of, denigrating them etc (which alienates and divides, a classic anti tactic) and realize that no single style of of our replies will resonate with everyone on the other. We must taylor our style to the audience we are addressing.

They will never leave us alone as long as they keep thinking they have the cure that will save so many lives.

Think about it... if I thought I had the cure for cancer, the only time I would stop promoting it is when someone educated me enough to realize I don't have the cure for cancer.

Why would they be any different? (For the ones that want to saves lives and not just have more control)

It's almost appalling to me seeing different age based ownership of an AR vs. Mini 14 or a mag limit suggestions here.

It's as logical as saying 21 yr olds can only buy a six pack at a time and drink beer ( mini 14) but you have to be 25 to drink wine (AR) and just ban whiskey (full auto) and all that will stop drunk driving deaths.


We are the ones that posts thousands of times a week on countless forums about the AR (and a few others) being Battle Rifles when in all reality countless other rifles, shot guns, and pistols could have achieved the same thing.

Critizing Feinstein and Friends for using terms like "weapons of war" while using terms like "battle rifle" ouselves is hypocrisy at its finest.

In modern lingo... we have helped the Antis make the AR Battle Rifle "trending".

We absolutely have, imo, helped turned the AR into pop culture.


Look in the mirror...
We have to realize that if we are not part of changing the culture through our actions and engagement of others... we are part of the culture problem.

We need to be more ACTIVELY involved in many many things from mental illness, responsible ownership, education of others, not glorifying battle rifles etc etc etc. And that means more than typing quipy sermons for the choir to applaud.


It's not a gun issue, it's a cultural issue in many facets of life that got us to this point.

If we lob them up..... the antis will swing for the fences everytime.

If we choose not to be actively involved in changing our culture, kiss the 2A good bye.
 
I'm so old that I remember the frenzy about switchblade knives in the 1950s. Gangs were the menace to society, and switchblades were their preferred weapon, at least in the movies. What did that get us? Laws against switchblades that are just now being repealed or overruled.

Silly, fearful people think that banning the object of their fear will keep them safe.

So I say, make the AR15 illegal. Heck, it's to protect the children. Make them double illegal. And if you're shooting people on Sunday, or in a place of worship, make it quintuple illegal. And if it's a hate crime, make it octuple illegal. Octuple illegal should make you safe, shouldn't it?

If the logic of this plan escapes you, well, you're probably an HR reader.

The Founders knew well the positive and negative factors of having an armed populace. They chose to give us an armed populace. You might argue that it wasn't a wise choice, but that decision has been made and certain policy decisions are off the table.
 
Happy Land night club, NYC 1990. One guy killed 87 people with about a gallon of gas.

The media, heavily funded by people who peddle mind altering drugs, will always keep the focus on the guns. Focus needs to be shifted to more likely causes or influencial factors like this, culture etc.

The expectations of perfect unfailing safety are not supportable and should not be allowed to persist. This is life 101, and along with understanding the birds and the bees part of growing up into adulthood. A legitimate government should remind people of this when pressed to find "solutions".
 
To answer the OP’s question “How does one now defend owning AR15’s?”
That is simply. I want them because, I like them. But if you really wish to learn the definition of defense, just attack me.
The liberals that wish to disarm you want to do it peacefully, but if you refuse to go along with them, they would have no problem with killing you. Or at least have someone kill you.
I see liberals as sheep. The sheep hate the sheepdog, but without the sheepdog, the sheep would become prey for the predators. I am The Sheepdog.
 
How many school children have been killed with a rental truck? Maybe raising the age for purchases of AR and AK platforms would help. I have owned AR15's in the past and I love shooting them, but is it worth having your grandson or granddaughter killed?
PS I am a gun owner, and not a Liberal.[/QUOTE
Doctors & hospitals kill over 200,000 patients each year from negligence ---i don't see people demanding to ban them. about 33,000 people are killed each year by guns--65% kill themselves----25% of those left are killed in 4 cities--most with handguns.
 
Words matter. They have power and their meaning can be manipulated.

The first words about the Florida mass murder have been "mass shooting". Everything else in the coverage flows from this initial characterization. Its a "gun control" issue because there was a "gunman" who had an "assault weapon" who used it in a "mass shooting". Your logical choices are constrained by the language and funneling of the argument toward the inevitable solution of more "gun control".

What if breathless news coverage called it what it really is... a mass murder? The implication is that the blame resides with the murderer instead of the implement. Why do the news media insist on holding an implement accountable instead of the murderer who wields it? Why is the news media so fixated on the implement, and so mamby-pamby about the monster?

Please help correct the false flag notion being planted in your brain that this is anything but a mass murder.

The other unthinking position is the call for more "gun control". In this case and many others, the gun was purchased legally with the person clearing the backgound check process and 5 day waiting period in Florida. There are 20,000 gun laws on the books already. I would say that there is enough common sense gun control in effect already. There are very few common sense "crazy people control" laws. When "crazy people control" laws start to approach the number of gun control laws, we can talk about whether we have made a dent in the criminal misuse of firearms.
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I’m not interested in defending or justifying choices I make to others.

Nor am I interested in disallowing myself the ability to make that choice simply because something happened outside my sphere of influence. We live in a country where the default position SHOULD lean to self-sufficiency, individual liberty, and self-determination. I don’t hate myself for that, and neither should anyone else.

Look, I get that there are bad things happening in other parts of the world. But that does not mean I should justify my lifestyle or choices I make to others. Nor should I feel obligated to make involuntary drastic action to try and change their circumstances. My attitude is the same whether we are talking about AR-15s or climate change (remember when we were supposed to feel guilty for keeping our ACs on 72 year-round?) or peace in the middle east (lol).
 
Here is what an anti gun friend of mine posted. They’re passing this around to try and sway those of us who might be tricked by their lies

Note I don’t agree with any of this. I’m posting so we can see the lies and tricks being used against us.

Not sure who actually wrote this but I think it addresses the issue and need for the reframe from control to safety.
GUNS - MESSAGING
When having interactions with pro-gun folks many are fiercely anti-gun control and suggest that there is simply nothing we can do to fix the problem. This may seem overly simplistic, but once we remove the label of "gun control" and simply suggest the "gun-safety", conversation will move in a more positive direction because the perceived threat of "control" is removed.

Let's start to talk about these "gun safety" recommendations. You will be surprised to see how many gun owners are open to change.

1. Require that all guns manufactured in the future have the "smartgun" feature, which makes the gun inoperable to anyone but the valid owner. This way thieves and children would not be able to use a gun that wasn't registered to them. This technology is already available.

2. Continue allowing people to purchase and own guns, but outlaw those with rapid fire capabilities, which are not appropriate for hunting or personal protection, but are primarily used just for sport. Set a standard for how many bullets per second a civilian gun is permitted to fire. This would not infringe on anyone's Second Amendment rights, as we have always put limitations on owning certain types of military grade weapons.

3. Set up a massive buyback program (as Australia did) to pay people who would like to exchange their guns for cash, in order to cut down on the number of existing guns floating around in our communities.

4. Raise the legal purchasing age for a gun to 21. If someone isn't considered old enough to buy cigarettes or beer they shouldn't be able to buy a gun either.

5. Expand background checks to include FBI lists of suspected terrorists/suspicious people and close up any private sale, gun show loopholes. There should be no legal way for a criminal to purchase a gun without a background check.

6. Change the existing gun purchasing standard from why shouldn't a buyer own a gun to why they SHOULD. Instead of law-enforcement trying to prove that someone ISN'T qualified to have a gun, make the buyer prove that they actually ARE responsible. This wouldn't inconvenience any decent citizens, only criminals.

7. Stop blocking government agencies from conducting research on gun violence so that we have factual evidence to base future solutions on.

8. Require safety courses and gun licenses in ALL states for Gun purchases, as well as liability insurance. Require longer waiting periods. Most people who think they need a gun "right now" should probably slow down.

Again, let's think about our message. The phrase "Gun control" frightens gun owners and they believe liberals are coming to take their guns away. Most rational Americans actually agree with pretty much all of the proposals from gun-control advocates. It just needs to be put into terms they feel comfortable with to earn their much-needed support.
Next time someone says there's nothing we can do here's the answer. There's PLENTY we can do right now.
 
We are in a never ending battle, and need to accept that. Talking among ourselves is useful, but we need to keep reaching out to the average person. We might complain about progressives living in a bubble, but we can be guilty of that as well.
It is hard to try to be rational and polite when others depend on purely emotional arguments, but being emotional right back just raises the temperature. Here's a letter I just sent to the local paper. It's a 300 word limit and designed for a general audience, so keep that in mind as you read it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Simple and Obvious Solutions Aren't

Whenever a tragedy such as the one in Florida happens, there are calls to do something. People, being human, want simple and obvious solutions, like banning the gun which was used.

Focusing on the tool used is a distraction. The AR-15 is no magic death machine. It's lower powered than most hunting rifles, and I'm not comforted thinking that the nut shooting kids couldn't get one. From a pump shotgun, five rounds of buckshot sends 45 pellets into a crowd, each as big as the bullet from an AR-15.

Wouldn't it be better to prevent the tragedy rather than just cut down on the number hurt?

In this latest case, the FBI was warned about the threat, but did nothing. In the case of the church shooting in Texas, not only did the Air Force fail to report him to the ATF, but the local sheriff apparently didn't investigate him for a sexual assault charge in 2013.

Rather than wasting energy and political capital in an attempt to force unpopular restrictions on firearms, we would be better off putting the resources into finding troubled youth and working with them to solve their problems - or lock them up. That is more likely to get broad support, and more importantly, find people before they commit violent crimes.

Even if we could put effective restrictions on guns (the war on drugs shows how easy that is) are we better off if the next nut loads his pickup with cans of gas and performs a twisted death and glory ride through the front door of the school?

It will be hard, but let's try to find those kids before they ruin others lives, and their own.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My main effort is to get people to stop some people from thinking of assault weapon bans as the best solution. Will I succeed? Who knows, but if I can light a candle, it's better than cursing the darkness.

Get online, write the paper, respond to the gun grabbers posts. Keep it polite, short and - - check your facts before sending.

What have you done today?
 
Its all because neither side takes the time to understand the other. Hence the need to defend. NO NEED. Those who wish to outlaw care just as much about innocent lives as one does that owns firearms and belongs to the NRA. Not sure if anything will span that gulf.
 
Got one that I'm working on but haven't thought all the way through. Here goes...

Today there's an estimated 8 million AR15s in the U.S. It seems like if the rifle was the problem there would be far more mass murders than there are now. Like multiple mass murders every day. That just isn't happening.

On the other hand, there are between 30 and 300 people in this country (on any given day) who are capable and contemplating doing a mass murder. And so we get one every several months.

It seems to me like the effort should be focused on the 30 to 300 people who have the instability, behavior problems, are making the threats, and giving the signs of their intentions. Banning guns affects millions of lawful gun owners without any focus on the real problem individuals. Banning guns only makes gun haters happy, but does nothing to "make the children safe".
 
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I believe in criminalizing behaviors, not objects.

Possessing alcohol and an automobile is not a crime, but drinking and driving is.

Owning a particular weapon should not be a crime, threatening to shoot people is already a crime.

Owning a weapon, using prescribed mind-altering drugs to counter serious mental problems, and threatening people is definitely a crime.

The problem is that the authorities are not required to protect us from threats - unless they feel like it.
 
While somewhat off topic, but since it was posted i will reply to it.

On the other side, folks that think a million semi automatic poodle shooters are going to keep an oppressive government from crushing our freedoms is not looking at the big picture. First of all, the legislative and executive branches can do more with the pen stroke to put you in figurative chains that are much more binding than literal ones. Leaning on that argument is folly. If .gov wanted to roll through the streets, we don't have the firepower to stop that./QUOTE]
History says it only takes around 10% of a population to over throw a government if that 10% is willing to take up arms and fight. Tanks, planes and helicopters are not much use if you are fighting against your own citizens. Just turn on the news and look at the world.
 
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How does one now defend (in a nutshell) owning AR-15s?
Allowing the conversation to revolve around this question as if it is reasonable/valid is a mistake.
  • The existence of rapists does not mean that all sexually functioning adults need to justify why they should be allowed to keep their genitals.
  • The occurrence of vehicle massacres does not mean that all vehicle owners should justify owning a vehicle.
  • The existence of pickpockets does not mean that law abiding people need to come up with a defense explaining why they should not be altered to reduce their manual dexterity to the point that pickpocketing would be impossible.
  • Serial stabbing/slashing/chopping incidents do not imply that people need to justify owning knives or cleavers or axes.
  • Should acid attacks start people asking car battery owners to justify their ownership of such items?
  • Arson attacks do not start a storm of people calling for the regulation of accelerants or fire starting materials.
My genitals have nothing to do with what rapists do. My car has nothing to do with vehicle attacks. My manual dexterity has nothing to do with why people's wallets are stolen. My pocket knife has nothing to do with any knife attack. The fact that I own a battery containing sulfuric acid doesn't have anything to do with acid attacks. My access to gasoline and matches has nothing to do with arson attacks. The guns I own have nothing to do with the school shooting in Florida--nor with any mass shooting anywhere.

I refuse to be punished for the evil that other people do and I have a low opinion of the reasoning skills and world view of those who believe it makes sense to penalize huge numbers of innocent persons because a very few people choose to commit horrible acts.
 
I absolutely love the hypocrisy of raising the purchase age to 21. If they ram that through, will the military minimum recruiting age also rise to 21? After all, they handle far more dangerous weapons than what all the communists have their undies in a wad about.
 
Allowing the conversation to revolve around this question as if it is reasonable/valid is a mistake.
  • The existence of rapists does not mean that all sexually functioning adults need to justify why they should be allowed to keep their genitals.
  • The occurrence of vehicle massacres does not mean that all vehicle owners should justify owning a vehicle.
  • The existence of pickpockets does not mean that law abiding people need to come up with a defense explaining why they should not be altered to reduce their manual dexterity to the point that pickpocketing would be impossible.
  • Serial stabbing/slashing/chopping incidents do not imply that people need to justify owning knives or cleavers or axes.
  • Should acid attacks start people asking car battery owners to justify their ownership of such items?
  • Arson attacks do not start a storm of people calling for the regulation of accelerants or fire starting materials.
My genitals have nothing to do with what rapists do. My car has nothing to do with vehicle attacks. My manual dexterity has nothing to do with why people's wallets are stolen. My pocket knife has nothing to do with any knife attack. The fact that I own a battery containing sulfuric acid doesn't have anything to do with acid attacks. My access to gasoline and matches has nothing to do with arson attacks. The guns I own have nothing to do with the school shooting in Florida--nor with any mass shooting anywhere.

I refuse to be punished for the evil that other people do and I have a low opinion of the reasoning skills and world view of those who believe it makes sense to penalize huge numbers of innocent persons because a very few people choose to commit horrible acts.
And this is how those who would disarm us control the arguement.

In this case "justify having an AR-15". The arguements revolved around other issues since having an AR-15 is a right. Getting these into the public ear is difficult since the disarmers own the public forums - news, talkshows etc.
 
Whenever some progressive/ liberal/ communist/ idiot moron tells me I shouldn't be allowed to own an AR, I tell them the only reason I have one is to make them nervous. I always tell them that they are welcome to try and take it away. I'll give it to them......bullets first.

I remind them that if they try, there will be a civil war in this country that will make the first one look like a minor squabble among siblings. I also remind them that OUR side is the one with all the guns.

Then I tell them that there might be a lot less violence in the country if we would do four things: Stop lettings kids play unbelievably violent video games. Stop glorifying violence in the movies and on TV. Get rid of social media, and most important, let GOD back into our schools. Those first three are common to almost every mass shooter.

Then I tell them that, fortunately, nobody with a brain gives a flying you-know-what about what they think.

Then I tell them to go pound sand, turn my back on them and walk away. I can't say what I REALLY tell them, but "pound sand" is a close enough approximation.

This is, after all, a gentleman's forum
 
Without reading three pages of posts so this might've been said:

Because I want one. Feel no need to defend where and on what I spend my money on. And have no reason to question where others spend theirs. Except for the government. But that's a different rant you don't want to get me on...........
 
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Regardless of the accuracy... in fact, in spite of the inaccuracy, this is a pretty powerfull speech from a 17 yr old student to a nation that is listening right now.

These two parts however, concerns me as it indicates the culture that is spreading at an alarming rate and also how the culture is fostered.

The news source doesn't matter but here it is.

What matters is that the nation is listening to this and what the culture is and who/how it's being spread.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/17/us/florida-student-emma-gonzalez-speech/index.html

I read something very powerful to me today. It was from the point of view of a teacher. And I quote: When adults tell me I have the right to own a gun, all I can hear is my right to own a gun outweighs your student's right to live

And...

Politicians who sit in their gilded House and Senate seats funded by the NRA telling us nothing could have been done to prevent this, we call BS. They say tougher guns laws do not decrease gun violence. We call BS. They say a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun. We call BS. They say guns are just tools like knives and are as dangerous as cars. We call BS. They say no laws could have prevented the hundreds of senseless tragedies that have occurred. We call BS. That us kids don't know what we're talking about, that we're too young to understand how the government works. We call BS.



If you're not actively involved, you'll have no one to blame but yourselves when YOUR 2A rights are cut in half from where it is today and YOUR KIDS don't have a 2A Right any where close to what it is today.
 
My genitals have nothing to do with what rapists do. My car has nothing to do with vehicle attacks. My manual dexterity has nothing to do with why people's wallets are stolen. My pocket knife has nothing to do with any knife attack. The fact that I own a battery containing sulfuric acid doesn't have anything to do with acid attacks. My access to gasoline and matches h
Trust me the Left would love to control your guns, knives, wallet, car, and yes, eventually your genitals.
 
The AR-15 is probably the most polarizing firearm currently. I don't pretend to even understand the situation one half as well as experts, but a gun owner who enjoys the hobby but isn't a single issue 2nd amendment voter I struggle with the hard lines in the sand on both sides.

One one side, we have "No one needs a military assault weapon! Ban these offensive (not defensive) weapons!"

OK, well no one needs a car that goes over 60mph. Car crashes kill way more people than guns. No one needs a cheeseburger. Regulating fast-food would do a great deal to combat diabetes, obesity, and heart disease. The government telling me what I NEED doesn't sit right with me.

On the other side, folks that think a million semi automatic poodle shooters are going to keep an oppressive government from crushing our freedoms is not looking at the big picture. First of all, the legislative and executive branches can do more with the pen stroke to put you in figurative chains that are much more binding than literal ones. Leaning on that argument is folly. If .gov wanted to roll through the streets, we don't have the firepower to stop that. I put a lot more faith in young men like my nephew in the Marines saying "hell no!" If given such an order.

Now, at risk of being skewered, can we at least talk about the reason the gun has been used to such great effect? Yes another weapon could do such damage, but man is the AR easy to pack and load up for rapid sustained use. I'm not blaming the gun, but a magazine dump of 30 rounds of 5.56 into a crowd of kids is going to do more potential damage than 17 rounds out of a Glock. I don't know what to do to "fix" the issue, but there is no doubt that the Ar-15 is efficient and effective at the task of doing damage in short order.

I really like the rifle. I own one. It's what I protect my home with, but I will say it took me a long time to pick it back up after Sandy Hook. Like I said, it's not the guns fault. However, my daughter was in kindergarten at the time. The thought of the horror those kids felt at the end of their young lives sickened me beyond measure when I heard the distinctive report of a 5.56. I realize that is projecting, but that was how I felt. It wasn't fun shooting it for a long time.

I realize the genie is out of the bottle. I don't think it needs to go back in, but there needs to be something done to make it even harder for crazy folks to get their hands on these guns. I realize it's a bit knee jerk, but I'll be damned if "our thoughts and prayers are with your families, but..." would be a passable response if this happened to MY daughter, and to be honest and probably unpatriotic she is my number concern of anything in this universe.

Something needs to be done about this. I think it's a combination of hardware (maybe regulating high capacity 30 round and up magazines as we do purchasing the gun themselves) and software (actually following the laws on the books that would protect us from people getting these guns who shouldn't pass a BG check). There has to be something that will at least help.

tl;dr and to answer the topic:

I'm a law abiding citizen who appreciates punching paper with an Ar. However, if you told me I had to do it shooting 6 10 round mags instead of 2 30s, is be ok with that.
If only they would stop there. Look at New York...well, we got their 10 round mags, now let's see if we can get them down to seven....hmmm how bout three......
Look at California. No detachable mags at all.
The Left will not stop until all privately owned firearms are destroyed.
There can be no appeasement with the Left, because they would never honor any deal longer than it would take for the ink to dry.
 
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