How far over book max to load when velocity is down?

He’s asking why X-Terminator is only achieving 80% of what Hodgdon says it should vs other powders which are getting 90% of the listed velocities. Part 2 of the question was whether or not to load up until he got the listed velocity even if it means going over. For Part 1, the obvious answer is because it’s not a good combination. That happens and trying to force a bad combination to work is almost always a bad idea. I think the only people who can explain the Why’s are the ballisticians at Hodgdons. For Part 2, the answer depends on the answer to the question: How are the lower loads performing on target? Still have not seen the answer to that question. Can’t think it matters to the OP as a result. If accuracy matters, velocity is secondary.
From the word go the emphasis was going higher or going over max.... that was well addressed by many. As a literal person I saw two things, I'm substituting data instead of finding data that matches the components he's using. And then talks about going over max when that is not the case at all. Some people get hung up on misspelling. I get distracted when the wrong question is asked.... the other in my face solution is to load another caliber say 308 and see if that shows equally poor results. That isolates it to the powder and removes a lot of guess work...
 
From the word go the emphasis was going higher or going over max.... that was well addressed by many. As a literal person I saw two things, I'm substituting data instead of finding data that matches the components he's using. And then talks about going over max when that is not the case at all. Some people get hung up on misspelling. I get distracted when the wrong question is asked.... the other in my face solution is to load another caliber say 308 and see if that shows equally poor results. That isolates it to the powder and removes a lot of guess work...
Oh, I agree that definitely the wrong question is being asked. I also think the wrong answers are being given. If the OP is getting good accuracy out of the load that is only giving “80%” of the book velocity - for a completely different bullet in a much longer barrel - then the need for speed is irrelevant. It’s just somebody’s wondering yet again why testing results for a completely different list of components isn’t meeting their expectations.

The holes matter, not so much the speed at which they are made.
 
So it looks like the answer is that I am not loading the X-Terminator up to the same MAP as I am loading the Benchmark, H-335, and StaBALL Match. Loading it to a lower peak pressure is resulting in less area under the pressure/time curve or less impulse and therefore less muzzle velocity. The solution is to load it up with a higher charge mass. Then I can compare it to the other powders more fairly.

It was important that before I decided to write it off as a bad combination that I understood why it was not working as expected. It wasn't because it was too slow a powder, or too fast a powder, but because I wasn't loading it up enough -- enough to compare it to the other powders that I was loading at higher pressure. With this understanding, I can compare the powders at similar pressures, and I probably won't have to dismiss X-Terminator for having poor performance in velocity.

As for accuracy, I am testing that, but this thread wasn't about it. All the shots that I obtained velocity from were shot onto targets and the groups measured. My charge/velocity ladders consisted of only two shots per charge mass. I subsequently did not evaluate X-Terminator for 5-shot group size because I was not achieving sufficient velocity for it to matter. The other powders I did.

There is a lot of misunderstanding of what I am trying to do or what my question was in this thread. I've made some errors myself in finding, reading, or interpreting the available data, but never was I trying to achieve listed velocities with a shorter barrel, nor was I trying to maximize velocity.

Some asked the purpose, which is fair. My primary purpose is to evaluate powders and develop my method for evaluating powders. Then I will apply what I hope to be sound methods to evaluating powders for a different bullet, the 55 grain CX. For the CX, velocity and terminal performance will matter as well as accuracy. Why not start with the CX? It should be obvious that I'm figuring out what I'm doing and it's more affordable to do that with the SP. For the SP, it's terminal performance is relevant for one of my purposes, but it is also inexpensive enough to plink with. Loads with insufficient velocity for good terminal performance are less valuable. As I wrote above, I am evaluating accuracy also.
 
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Oh, I agree that definitely the wrong question is being asked. I also think the wrong answers are being given. If the OP is getting good accuracy out of the load that is only giving “80%” of the book velocity - for a completely different bullet in a much longer barrel - then the need for speed is irrelevant. It’s just somebody’s wondering yet again why testing results for a completely different list of components isn’t meeting their expectations.

The holes matter, not so much the speed at which they are made.
If he uses the resources I provided it's the correct bullet and powder. The endless arguments on proper adjustment for barrel length is tiring. If one wants more velosity get a barrel that matches the speed regime your after....
 
When reloading for shorter barrels a powder burn rate chart comes in handy. No matter the burn rate the recommended maximum by the reloading manuals can't be exceeded. Some will say burn rate charts are worthless but I have reasons that I use them. And yes, I know I that I am opening up a can of worms.
 
When reloading for shorter barrels a powder burn rate chart comes in handy. No matter the burn rate the recommended maximum by the reloading manuals can't be exceeded. Some will say burn rate charts are worthless but I have reasons that I use them. And yes, I know I that I am opening up a can of worms.
The data sets are available from closed bomb testing, a number is generated, and than number should be assigned or provided. Grt and quickloads have charts that are well refined based on the models they run...
 
Ramshot X-Terminator

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


Google- Western load data Hodgdon Edition 8. Screenshot_20240302-230656_Drive.jpg Screenshot_20240302-230721_Drive.jpg 1
 
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You may want to verify that the charge was right by loading a few more and compare the velocities.

I looked to see if it was very temp sensitive and did not find any data.

Was these shot from a cold barrel or mid stream in all your testing?
 
For a better approximation you could use 223 pistol data. On Hodgdens website it tests with a 15” barrel.
 
westernrover, I am going to suggest something maybe a little unsettling, but I really think you need to get some proper, formal instruction on how to reload and understand reloading theory.

Either/and that and some education on the scientific method as part of your issue seems to be that you have far too many unknowns happening at one time.

You seem to have just enough information to potentially harm yourself. Nobody wants that.
 
High pressure signs in an AR 15 223/5.56. The brass will stick in the chamber. The brass rim will be damaged on extraction. Primers will flow into the pin channel. More so with CCI 400.

Note: I would follow lower pressure 223 load data for a 5.56 chamber. Accuracy first. Velocity 2nd.

More photos High Pressure = Short brass Life
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So it looks like the answer is that I am not loading the X-Terminator up to the same MAP as I am loading the Benchmark, H-335, and StaBALL Match.
That is not only a bad assumption, it is a dangerous one.

Velocity is a function of pressure AND time. When comparing different powders, one can not make assumptions about pressure based solely on velocity--the shape of the pressure curve is also important. It is possible to get higher velocity with LOWER pressure if the pressure curve is longer and you have enough barrel to take advantage of it.

It's not just how hard the powder is pushing (pressure) it's how long it can maintain that push at a high level.
It wasn't because it was too slow a powder, or too fast a powder, but because I wasn't loading it up enough -- enough to compare it to the other powders that I was loading at higher pressure. With this understanding, I can compare the powders at similar pressures,...
If you want to do this kind of thing safely, you need to get some pressure measuring equipment. You don't have nearly enough information to make the assumptions you are making. Another option which is less expensive, but also not as accurate is to invest in some reloading software and learn how to use it.
 
You may want to verify that the charge was right by loading a few more and compare the velocities.

I looked to see if it was very temp sensitive and did not find any data.

Was these shot from a cold barrel or mid stream in all your testing?
Most ball powders (like X-Terminator) are temperature sensitive. Much more so than an extruded powder (like Benchmark). The OP didn’t mention temperature during his testing but if it was cold (like 30F), that alone could explain the velocity disparity between Benchmark and X-Terminator. He should repeat his testing at 70F or warmer and will see much closer velocities between the two. (My own testing involved 40 gr bullets out of a 26” bolt gun and the results were startling).
 
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