How good is CZ 75 to be a serious contender for the US Army service pistol?

Is CZ 75 better for the US Army or any of the following?

  • CZ 75

    Votes: 15 18.1%
  • Sig P226

    Votes: 13 15.7%
  • Colt 1911

    Votes: 5 6.0%
  • Glock 17

    Votes: 15 18.1%
  • Keep the M9, enough of this debate.

    Votes: 35 42.2%

  • Total voters
    83
  • Poll closed .
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el Godfather

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Dear THR,
I have seen various threads and arguments for different pistols which should be considered for the US Army. May be I have not looked hard enough, but I have not seen any argument in favor of a CZ 75. Why is this? Is CZ not in the same league as Glock, Sig etc?

What are your thoughts on this?

Please remember that question is not whether the US Army should adopt CZ or not. It is whether the CZ can be top contender or better then ones in poll list?
Thank you
 
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Why would they go with a CZ 75??

IF they do replace the current issue pistols it will almost certainly be with a poly frame pistol due to cost savings and more importantly weight savings not to mention changeable backstraps to suit the shooter better. The CZ 75 would be going to a yet heavier pistol. Whether the replacement pistol would be a striker fired or hammer fired pistol remains to be seen but I doubt it would be a CZ.

The SIG P226 IS currently used by the SEALS.
 
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It's a moot point as M9 procurement is ongoing; the Beretta isn't going away any time soon. When the M9 is eventually replaced, it will be by something that hasn't even been developed yet.
 
I love the CZ (it is my personal preferance) but I don't think it is going to be the new pistol. Two reasons, weight and logistics. With the military, logistics is very important to say the least. Unless you get a quantum leap in performance they are not going to change anything just for the sake of changing and upset their supply chain and training. And as a taxpayer I don't want them to spend my money if the M9 is doing OK.
 
A CZ wouldn't come close to meeting the minimum reliability requirements. They have all been tested side by side. There is a reason there are almost zero CZ pistols in LE and military use anywhere other than in a few 3rd world countries.
 
isnt the hammer fired pistol considered essential due to its double strike compatibility?

Not really. Walther makes a striker fired pistol with double strke capability - the Walther P99 AS which has been around for over a decade. If Walther ever has a big manufacturing facility in the US they certainly could be a player some day.
 
The next pistol will be polymer framed.

A CZ wouldn't come close to meeting the minimum reliability requirements. They have all been tested side by side. There is a reason there are almost zero CZ pistols in LE and military use anywhere other than in a few 3rd world countries
I'd wager the reason would be cost, not reliability. For large contracts, SIG/GLOCK/H&K etc. can beat pretty much everybody.
 
A CZ wouldn't come close to meeting the minimum reliability requirements. They have all been tested side by side. There is a reason there are almost zero CZ pistols in LE and military use anywhere other than in a few 3rd world countries.


Where did you get this information?

The U.S. will pick the pistol based upon whatever political advantage it gives, along with the testing. If the U.S. needed something from or in the Czech Republic, they'd pick a CZ like the P-01, Shadow, or a another CZ offering.

I don't recall any CZ's being tested side by side in the trials to replace the M1911.
 
I am a big CZ guy, but the time to adopt the CZ75 was some time ago, when even 1911 guru Jeff Cooper proposed the CZ 75. Problem being, it was made in a communist country, so supply might have been a wee bit hard, not to mention the propaganda coup for Warsaw Pact and Moscow.
For today, a few very good contenders from CZ would be the CZ SP-01 Phantom, a poly framed pistol that has been adopted by one military so far, or either the CZ P-07 Duty, or the up and coming P-09 Duty pistol, due out in 2013.
I think the Phantom would be an excellent choice for US service, but two things might work against it - production and origin. After WWII Italy has always been an ally, and Beretta has been making guns for about 500 years. Czechoslovakia became the Czech Republic in recent memory, and CZ-UB became an independent company in 1992. Despite being the largest small arms manufacturer in the world, with over 200 acres of factory buildings under roof, CZ-UB would probably need to build a US factory to supply the Phantom to US troops, and in addition, there would be for quite some time, senior officers and officials who have that "Czechoslovakia = enemy" in the backs of their minds left over from the Cold War.
I think the Ersatz Mr Mosin is right - some thing else not yet built will probably take the M9's place, we just have to wait and see. Of course, I wouldn't cry if the Phantom WAS adopted - I carry one myself. :)
 
A CZ wouldn't come close to meeting the minimum reliability requirements. They have all been tested side by side. There is a reason there are almost zero CZ pistols in LE and military use anywhere other than in a few 3rd world countries.

You may not feel CZs are reliable, but that's a FEELING. If you can base your claim (cited above) on facts, please share them with us -- it would make your assertions a bit more credible. Not much credibility there, at the moment.

CZ clones AND CZs are slowly starting to get picked up by military units around the world. It's taken a while, and it's not in big numbers, yet -- but it's slowly happening. And they had to start somewhere.

A later version of the CZ P-07 Duty may eventually be a serious competitor for police or military contracts. Personally, I'd expect S&W or Ruger to win the next MAJOR U.S. firearms contract for handguns. (Beretta won a contract for 450,000 M9s in 2008 that has another year or so to run.)

CZ had to almost start from scratch when the Soviet Union fell, and has not had the financial clout to compete against the giants like Glock, SIG, or Beretta. And, then too, I think any gun selected by the US will have to be built in the US. I'm not sure CZ could manage that, yet.

I'm not a big fan of the Beretta M9, have had a couple of 92s and a 96. That said, the US military already has a LARGE inventory in place and they've been using them for 20+ years. Given budget constraints, etc., I wouldn't expect any big changes in the next 5-6 years.
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_75#Users

Many countries use copies and clones produced by local manufacturers, see above. This incomplete list however includes only users of the original Czech-made CZ 75.

-Czech Republic: Used by the Czech Armed Forces.[12] Also used by Czech police forces.[9]

-Georgia [13]

-Lithuania: Lithuanian Armed Forces.[14]

-Poland: Polish army and Polish police (limited use)[15]

-Russian Federation: Used by law enforcement [16]

-Slovakia: Slovak rail police, military police and the elite paramilitary tactical unit (Slovak: Kukláči)[17]

-Thailand:Used by Royal Thai Army special units [18]

-Turkey: Turkish police forces.[9]

-United States: Used by several police departments[9] and Delta Force.[19]
 
Not sure I grok the question. Actually, the OP is fielding a bunch of questions. CZ makes some truly excellent pistols.

The contenders for the US service pistol were all evaluated in the 1980s. CZ was not in a position to be a contender, of course, since the Iron Curtain was still up and Czechoslovakia was controlled by a pro-Soviet communist regime until 1989.

In terms of a future service pistol, I doubt the CZ would be able to compete for several reasons - none of which have to do with the actual CZ pistol line (which are fine products in and of themselves).

Beretta won the contest for the Army service pistol by a slim margin against the Sig P226. The deciding factor was cost - the P226 was bid at a higher overall cost than the 92FS. So the 92FS became the M9, the Army's new service pistol.

The Combat Pistol program (formerly the Future Handgun System, later merged with the SOF Combat Pistol program to create the Joint Combat Pistol) was radically reduced in scope about six or seven years ago. A joint U.S. Army/Air Force Modular Handgun System could select a commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) handgun to replace the M9 pistol in Fiscal Year 2011–12, if funds were available (I don't think much funding was left over anyway).

And, even if the Army was to procure some CZ off-the-shelf products, CZ would not likely be in a position to set up a plant in the US to service a military contract, as did Beretta for the M9. And the M11 is served from the Sig factory in the US.

Also, in 2009, Beretta got another contract worth $200 million to supply the U.S. military with 450,000 of the M9 pistol through the year 2015. So, I don't think there would even be an opening for a replacement of the M9 for a good number of years to come.

So, there is not much prospect for the CZ to be bid into the US military as a standard service pistol.
 
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The CZ-75 would be a side-step. Yes, it is reliable and works, but so does the Beretta M9. Why replace 1970's technology with more 1970's technology?

If going to a pistol a more modern design make much more sense. It would probably be something developed from scratch for the contract, but realistically it would almost certainly be polymer framed. I think ditching DA/SA for striker-fired would be the wisest move - second strike is wasted time. If you snap on a round, you don't want to risk snapping on it again if you need it. ALWAYS T-R-B.

In any event, as already stated - this entire discussion is moot. The Army isn't replacing the M9, and I can't blame them. Yes, if I was buying from scratch the M9 wouldn't even make the short list, but if we're talking about REPLACMENT, I don't think that the benefits of something new outweigh the costs involved. Or more bluntly: there is room for improvement with the M9, but its good enough.
 
Personally, I'd like to see the Glock be the issued sidearm for our armed forces. But reality only allows for the continuance of the M9, which is not a bad gun to begin with. Financially speaking, we need to cut back a lot of things in this country and retooling is not in the cards for a long time.
 
As a big proponent of the CZ platform (and I mean that from a design standpoint, as Tanfoglio/CZ designed pistols), I can say the CZ would have been superb in the role the M9 took. But as was pointed out here, any pistol would be a side-step from the M9 now, and I mean ALL pistols currently out there. Nothing is a quantum step-up, not the vaunted Glock, not CZ, nothing, from the M9. I don't really care for Beretta pistols, but we have reached the zenith of center-fire cartridge arms. We are the flintlock circa 1800 . We might jump up to cap-and-ball with caseless rounds, but even that wouldn't be a giant leap (but enough to change all currently-fielded small arms).

There is nothing at all that can be done to make it better and the only thing that is done is playing with features. The Glock does nothing better than the M9 in the real world scenario beyond weight, but it loses with safety on the battlefield (not to trash Glocks, but there would be a jump of AD's with them on the battlefield IMO). CZ does nothing better than the M9, neither does SIG, Ruger, S&W, or anybody.

Had Tanfoglio entered into the competition, they could have beaten their Italian brothers back in the 1980's with price, but they didn't have weight covered yet. CZ just wouldn't have done it. Tanfoglio wasn't interested, nor would they likely be interested now. They already produce full-bore, being the source for the vast-majority of CZ copies in the world - though the Turks and Chinese are making inroads there. SIG could have beaten Beretta, too. It was price and performance, and all the designs have demonstrated performance.

CZ's were the choice of Israeli security forces, in addition to the Browning High Power, and were issued in significant numbers (including Tanfoglio pistols) and from all reports performed well in that environment. It has its own bonafidas.

But the number of angels on the pin must remain at 42. More than that and you get cosmic ju ju that must be considered. Less than that, and they get bored.
 
There are a few ways I thing the Glock outshines the M-9 for mass-issue to soldiers. One is the lack of a slide-mounted safety. When I was training my soldiers about clearing malfunctions and emergency reloads, I had to remind them to make sure that in racking the slide, they didn't drop the safety. I usually told them to get used to tugging the slide on the front divots instead. On the Glock this wouldn't be an issue. Also, a lot of the Army M-9s are totally hammered. Mine only ran with constant maintenence and checks. I think a Glock would survive in the field much better.
 
CZ makes great guns. The M9 IMO is a safer/better choice for mass troop issue, and the P226 (sans safety) for those with more training. I think poly striker-fired guns make a poor choice. And, 9mm NATO is the way to go.
 
cz75?

no. a good gun but it's all steel construction...undesirable weight.

options to the troop of hammer down or cocked and locked....undesirable options for the rank and file

the next duty weapon will probably be polymer, and probably will have a dao or sig DAK style firing system, .....a KISS design......and if they change, it will be probably 10 to 20 years down the road...

handguns are purty low priority in the grand scheme of things.

on a side note, i like the PCR myself....
 
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