How good of a shot were you before you....

[marklbucla]

Question: How good of a shot were you before you really started spending on your gun collections? Or in quantifiable terms, how small were your groups at 7 yards?

I'm asking this cuz I just saw S.W.A.T. last night with Skunk and I'm really starting to get that 1911 itch, but I don't feel like I'm good enough to justify the spending on another gun to the stable.

 

[Loaded]

Mark - I think it just comes natural to some and for others it requires some practice. I know I grew up during a time when it was very acceptable for us kids in the neighborhood to run around playing "Army". We had our plastic Thompsons, plastic pistols, bazookas, real working plasitc walkie talkies, and I even had a mortar that actually launched a blue plastic shell! We had a blast and we never hurt a fly in the process. We'd play like that all summer long from sun up to sun set.

Unfortunately kids today would be arrested by the SWAT team if a neighbor saw some kids having fun like we use to. So, instead they ride skateboards, paint their haor purple, get tattoos, do dope, and don't know the first thing about guns.

 

[incursion]

I stuck with one gun until I could get sub inch groups at 7 yards with my P7.

 

[444]

Before I really started spending money on my gun collection, I was great. Much better than I am now.
This is of course all relative. I owned a handgun at age 9. By the time I was legally old enough to buy a handgun I had three or four. I consider the time before I started really spending money on guns to be when I only owned maybe a half dozen.
But, one of the few guns that I owned at the time was a 1911. You don't need a lot of guns, just good ones. I had one defensive pistol at the time and it just happens to be the same one I have right now.

If you want to buy a 1911, buy one. You don't have to justify it to anyone. There is no qualification score you have to achieve before you can own one. If you arn't satisfied with your skill now, you can become a Distingused Master by serious training with your new 1911. You can justify buying a 1911 like this: I want one. I worked for the money and this is what I choose to spend it on. END OF STORY

 

[J Miller]

Sorry guys.....

Groups at 7- SEVEN yards???

At my worst that's just one big hole........(I shoot .45's ).

Seriously, at seven yards forget groups. That is close quarter combat range.
If at that short range you cant shoot a goop into one hole, or at least a very small group, you need back up, regroup, and practice your sight alinement, trigger pull, control and follow through.

As for how good I was before I started spending on more guns? It seems that I have always had several different handguns. SA revolvers, DA revolvers, 1911 variants. I just practice till I can shoot good groups at 7- NO, 10- NO, 25 yards - YES.
Of course I think the fact that I stick with one basic caliber helps. Components are common and ballisticly, a .45 Colt is very similar to a .45 ACP, so practice with one carries over to the other.

 

[10-Ring]

I can routinely shoot all my handguns very well at 7 yards. For me the idea of groups doesn't really kick in until I get to abot 50'. If you want a 1911, go for it!

 

[Pappy John]

For more than a few years the only handgun I owned was a 6" 686 that I shot weekly in a PPC league. Maybe not one hole, but certainly all in the X-ring of a B-27 target on the 7 yard line. Nowadays I own a lot more guns and spend my time with the other old bucks on the 25 yard bullseye range. Shoot some targets...shoot some bull...shoot some rocks off the 50 yard berm...shoot some more bull...makes for a nice afternoon.

 

[pax]

Better define the type of shooting we're talking about here. After all, there is a huge difference between timed and untimed shooting, at 7 yards or any other distance.

J Miller, what do your 7-yard groups look like doing Draw & Fires on an IPSC target from concealment in under 2 seconds by a good timer? All one ragged hole? All A-zones? C-zones? D-zones or off the paper? Can you even manage it in under 2 secs? (When I first started shooting, I couldn't meet that time, no matter what the target looked like when I was done.)

Or are you talking about working from low ready, no time limit, raise the gun to eye level, breathe in, breathe halfway out, hold your breath while slowly and methodically compressing the trigger and concentrating upon the front sight which is lined up on a circular target ...

If the latter, and if you are not a complete novice, it would be surprising if your target weren't beautiful -- and also not surprising that you'd want to step back a bit to give yourself more of a challenge.

If the former, a palm-sized group is dang good shooting, and shots within the A-zone are good 'nuff. An average shooter would put half the shots in the A-zone and half in the C-zone at that time and distance, and a novice would do considerably worse than that.

To answer the original question:

My shooting was crappy or worse than crappy when I first started shooting three years ago. At 7 to 10 yards, I often hit the target stand and my shots were literally all over the target. I didn't understand sight alignment or trigger control, nor did I believe that I could speed up by slowing down. And I had a pretty bad flinch.

I haven't experienced the magic of buying a bunch of guns to improve my shooting. It just doesn't sound all that likely to me. Instead, I took classes and have practiced a lot.

After my first class, at that same distance I was able consistently to put all shots into a notebook paper sized area in the center of the target, and to draw if not smoothly or quickly, at least safely and consistently.

My shooting has gotten steadily better ever since -- not as a result of collecting guns, but as a result of avidly working at learning to shoot well.

pax

 

[farscott]

I only had one handgun from the time I was six until I was twenty-two, so I got pretty good before I bought another (the first one I actually bought) handgun. Sixteen years of shooting one pistol was a very good thing for me. It was a Ruger Standard pistol, and the skills it helped me hone are the basis of my handgun shooting today.

As for seven-yard groups, I would expect a ragged hole. It has been a long time since I focused on group shooting as such short distances. As others have mentioned, that is self-defense distance, and my practice for that is more about the draw, acquiring the sights, and hitting the target than shooting for groups.

If you must get a 1911, also get a Marvel conversion kit and work with it. The .22 LR is an amazing teacher because it exposes all kinds of bad habits that can be masked by recoil from more powerful cartridges. Not to mention, how inexpensive it is and how much fun it provides.

 

[Standing Wolf]

...I don't feel like I'm good enough to justify the spending on another gun to the stable.

I personally don't care a great deal for the model 1911 or the .45 A.C.P. cartridge; that saidâ„¢, I think every serious shooter should have one and be proficient in its use. I believe no one ever needs to justify investing in the basics. In my experience, the only way to become a good shooter is to put in range time, ideally with a wide variety of firearms.

 

[sm]

I learned as a wee pup with a 9 shot revolver, took a bit to get hits on the large Hill Bros coffee can, when I did they made me shoot smaller cans. At 6 shot my first 1911 using I guess what is now low ready and Weaver 5 yds I wandered from A-D if IPSC measurements applied.

I stayed with that 9 shot, 1911's and K frames, the latter two I have always shot. I've let my Revo skills degrade. 1911 draw from concealment and get first shot on w/i 2sec , keep rounds on 3" square post it note from 7yds just flash picture and shoot.

Now, my first Tueller drill Many years ago where the target actually rushes at you... From 21 ft and will be on you in 1.5 seconds...pucker factor...from OWB I hit the darn thing, wasn't pretty, my first shot was head (A zone) my second was --well that sucker was close I was moving back and lateral and banged into the front of the shooting bench/wall...C zone. Oh nobody told me the darn lights would go out to low light either. My Second Tueller drill...after I un-puckered...we get lights dimmned, flashing blue and red lights, I get two C zones...and when I am about to reholster in the other lane here comes another BG...I got two A zones. Dreamed about being rushed by silhouette targets for a few nights. I still did not trust re-holster of the 1911 until he said "really its over" Didn't warn about the flashing lights either.

Still learning, always will...I need to shoot more than I do-for sure.
Never bought into changing guns per se', I found what I started with fit, never changed. Always thought truth in "Beware the man whom shoots one gun..."

oops, I did aquire a niche gun , I've spent an lot of ammo and trigger time,to learn this gun but this is a niche gun, I still shoot 1911 a bunch better. My best with this P-11 is from conceal to first hit .8 and kept all 11 rds on 3" post it note with flash pic, forget the total time, from 7 yds.

 

[Valkman]

My first serious shooting was bullseye at 20 yards, and it took some time to get proficient at it. I bought a Ruger Mk II bull barrel .22 to start with, then a S&W Model 41. For the .45 part I bought a $299 Norinco brand new and had the rangemaster do some work on it.

Pax is right - I find target shooting at 7 yds is very easy but I have no idea how I'd do drawing and shooting, etc. I've yet to go to a range that even allows practicing it, but I look forward to it.

 

[Art Eatman]

All my pistol shooting was fairly slow fire and with a one-hand hold until I took a combat pistol course, somewhat like Gunsite. Some 750 rounds in three days, learning the Weaver stance and drawing from a holster on multiple targets. I stayed with the program, practicing regularly, and then in March of 1981 I and some others started the old Hill Country PPC in Austintatious.

It wasn't the number or type of guns; it was the training and practice that made the big difference in my skill level.

Art

 

[caz223]

'Groups' at 7 yards don't really matter.
That's for speed shooting, multiple drills, etc, sight-in, etc.
25 yards you can take a little more time.
Slow, accurate, aimed fire, you should be able to hit a pop can fairly consistantly at 25 yards.
Also, you didn't mention what gun you had.
If a .38 snubby, or a pocket gun I wouldn't expect 'groups' from it.
I would go ahead and get another gun, anyway, but one different enough from the one you have now, in order to justify it's purchase.
And step back a bit from the target.

 

[t driver]

If you have the itch, and can afford it, go for it. I found that although I was an average shot, I eventually found a favorite gun(for now) and shoot it more than the others. I have become better than average with it. My skills in general keep improving and skill with the others improve as a result.

 

[marklbucla]

caz223,

I have a CZ75B with the Kadet Conv. and an EAA Witness .45 Full Size. At my best medium paced fire on the 7 yard line, I can make a single nickel sized hole with 8 out of 10 rounds in a magazine but at my worst, maybe a softball sized hole.

In the same way that it'd be dumb to give a Les Paul to a kid before he learns his chords or a Ferrari to a first time driver, I just don't wanna overspend beyond what I'm worth. From the sounds of your replies, it seems as though I would be. Guess that Colt 1991 will have to wait awhile.

 

[gbran]

3 main handguns

Some people hunt with bows & arrows, some with blackpowder rifles and some with Contender style single shot handguns......but my passion is conventional handgun hunting. I have a lot of handguns, but generally only regularily shoot 3 of them; a 22 mag revolver w/red dot for small game, a 454 SRH w/2x scope for big game and a Glock 30 for CCW. Because of my hunting, I've gotten very good with my hunting handguns. Been doing it for years. I'm not bad with the Glock, but I really need more practice with it.

 

[sanchezero]

mark,

What're you worried about man, those SWAT cops in that movie sucked; horrible shooting .

You gotta love how, even using special effects, they couldn't (wouldn't?) make them look like they were 'experts'. Cup and saucer grips still a big tactical tool in LA?



If you want a 1911, and you won't have to skip rent or food to buy it, have at. Altho pax does make the excellent (implied) point that practice and good instruction are more valuble than a shiny new bullet hose.

 

[JohnKSa]

Back when I only had two pistols, I shot around 400 rounds a month. With some concentration, I could generally manage at least one 1.5" 5 round group at 25 yards per trip to the range using a stock Beretta 92FS and factory 9mm.

Now I have over 30 guns and shoot less than 100 rounds a month. I don't know if I can shoot that well.

The big difference isn't that I have more guns, it's that I got married and therefore have less time to shoot...

 

[faustulus]

depends on how fast i shot.

 

[Ky Larry]

Mark, if you buy a 1911,you have a pistol that will last you a lifetime. You can enjoy it and pass it on to the next generation. It won't spoil in the gun safe. I don't think they will get any cheaper in the future.
None of us will ever know how well we shoot under real pressure until we are put in a life-or-death situation. Training isn't like being shot at. I don't think I'll be too worried about group size or timed fire exercises. I pray none of us ever have to find out.

 

[MoNsTeR]

That depends on how good your existing gun/guns is/are. If your practice and improvement are hampered by a bad trigger, bad sights, or bad ergonomics, getting a better gun or improving what you have will likely help you become a better shot. Maybe plunking down $700+ for a 1911 is the way to do that, maybe not. I'd be more inclined to suggest a good .22 and bricks upon bricks of practice, or a S&W wheelgun if you want more oomph.

For myself I can say that if I had stuck with the guns I started with I would not have improved, entirely due to horrible, awful triggers. I think the point at which I really started improving was when I got my Colt Python with its super-sweet SA pull and sharp black target sights.

 

[Zeus]

Man, go buy the 1911 for goodness sakes. I love mine and will probably pick up another one soon. I saw a Kimber tactical that has caught my eye. Just picked up a new Glock 32 (357 Sig) yesterday and it is super nice but doesn't have the "feel" of the 1911. My 1911 will shoot outstanding groups at 20 yards if I do my part. I have the Stainless "loaded" model from Springfield. About the movie....even from the previews, they look like idiots when they shoot. When they are practicing with the sniper rifle, he jerks his head away and snatches the trigger. Hope he is not the sniper that is trying to help me out if I am ever being used as a human sheild :>) But back to the question, go buy the 1911. You'll NEVER be sorry. GS

 

[P95Carry]

Before I was ''collecting'' .... I started off using range guns ... this was only small bore ... .22. Much of that tho was precision at 25 yds ... did pretty well.

Really got going tho when I got first center fire revo ... my first M27 ..... 7 yds was a breeze cos most compo stuff we shot was 25 yds, 15 yds and 10 yds ..... stages. Used same gun for practical and got quite proficient ...

I think there is much to be said for early days shooting to concentrate on pretty much one gun .... and get real proficient. Over time as I have aquired more ... I find that proficiency with almsot all comes quite quickly ...... mainly IMO cos of overall skills learned early - with just the one.

 

[XavierBreath]

There's an old saying....... Fear the man with only one gun.

Assuming you have an accurate pistol, the accuracy is more up to you than the gun. That being said, at 7 yards with DA/SA pistols I was shooting 5 round groups somewhere around 2 inches. I shot the same with most pistols I owned. Some were worse than others. My HK USP was the best, and my Beretta 92FS was the worst one I kept. Frankly, when I look at the way you can wiggle the barrel of a B92 at the muzzle end with it locked in place, I don't think it would shoot any better for anyone without a bushing installed.

When I finally got a 1911, my 7 yard groups of 5 shots immediately dropped to one inch. I saw the same with SA revolvers. The improvement was so immediate that I have to credit the hardware and not myself.