How hard should wadcutters be pushed in Airweight J-frames?

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OrangePwrx9

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Hoping for Bullseye and W231 charge wts that won't harm my .38 Model 37 yet be stronger than mouse fart target loads. I normally load 2.7 grs of Bullseye behind bevel-base wadcutters for concealed carry & range practice but these may be a bit light. Have gone as high as 3.3 grs Bullseye, but then questioned what I was doing. Got lots of BBWCs and lots of Bullseye & 231 so that's what I plan to use.

The M37, from the late '60s, is quite nice so I don't want to damage it.
 
While I don't have a J frame S&W I have 2 snub barrel 38 Specials, non +P rated. I have used max loads under a 150 gr. DEWC for my house gun loads. But for "jes shootin" I back off about 1/2-3/4 grain, for comfort. An S&W J frame in good shape should be fine with upper, non +P loads.
 
You **could** push them at the max of standard 38 pressures (not +p in that gun I believe), but just keep in mind.....the j-frame will have wicket recoil with a full power WC, and might crimp jump, especially if you load them flush. Just something to keep in mind.
 
OrangePwrx9 said:
Hoping for Bullseye and W231 charge wts that won't harm my .38 Model 37 yet be stronger than mouse fart target loads. I normally load 2.7 grs of Bullseye behind bevel-base wadcutters for concealed carry & range practice but these may be a bit light. Have gone as high as 3.3 grs Bullseye, but then questioned what I was doing. Got lots of BBWCs and lots of Bullseye & 231 so that's what I plan to use.

The M37, from the late '60s, is quite nice so I don't want to damage it.
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The bevel base is the most limiting factor. It won’t obturate to seal the bore like a hollow or flat base. The older Lyman manuals show a pretty wide range for Bullseye with a 140-ish grain wadcutter: 2.0-3.7gr I think 3.3gr is perfectly reasonable and might even suggest as high as 3.5gr if you don’t start seeing signs of leading and the muzzle flip is controllable.
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Those 1960's revolvers were sighted to shoot to point of aim with 158 grain bullets.

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Back in the day, when 2700 Bullseye was the self defense sport, pistol owners shot at 25 yard targets, and not using ammunition regulated for the pistol made a difference. Lighter bullets always shot low for me, about four inches low at 25 yards with my snubbies. Today, no one shoots at 25 yards unless they are rock busting on a berm. Twenty five yards is a long ways out there and today's pistol shooters are into rocking and rolling at close range.

I will say, for practice, sure shoot your 148's, won't hurt a thing, won't un necessarily wear out your air weight. And those air weights will wear out, timing goes, the crane hole in the frame will oval, etc. I really doubt at the velocities of a 38 snubbie a wad cutter is going to be any more lethal than a round nose. I purchased the latest and greatest non plus P 125's for my air weights, My air weights are post 2000, and they are regulated for 125 grain bullets. Not that I am going to see a point of impact change at seven yards.

If you really want to shoot wadcutters, stay within standard pressures. The data has been posted above. It was a classic target load to use 2.7 grains Bullseye with a 148 wad cutter. I was told to keep the 148's at 740 fps to keep them from tumbling at 50 yards and since lots vary, that might mean 2.8 grains Bullseye pistol powder. If you have never shot 2700 Bullseye, shooting a revolver in rapid fire, five shots in 10 seconds, at 25 yards, is amazingly difficult with one hand. I don't know how they did it. The great double action shooters could put a coin on top the barrel, and double action dry fire without the coin falling off! Competitors were looking for the lightest recoiling round that punched a round hole in a piece of paper. This load was never intended for self defense. It only has to make small groups, not recoil much, and stay stable to 50 yards.
 
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Slamfire said:
Those 1960's revolvers were sighted to shoot to point of aim with 158 grain bullets.

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Back in the day, when 2700 Bullseye was the self defense sport, pistol owners shot at 25 yard targets, and not using ammunition regulated for the pistol made a difference. Lighter bullets always shot low for me, about four inches low at 25 yards with my snubbies. Today, no one shoots at 25 yards unless they are rock busting on a berm. Twenty five yards is a long ways out there and today's pistol shooters are into rocking and rolling at close range.

I will say, for practice, sure shoot your 148's, won't hurt a thing, won't un necessarily wear out your air weight. And those air weights will wear out, timing goes, the crane hole in the frame will oval, etc. I really doubt at the velocities of a 38 snubbie a wad cutter is going to be any more lethal than a round nose. I purchased the latest and greatest non plus P 125's for my air weights, My air weights are post 2000, and they are regulated for 125 grain bullets. Not that I am going to see a point of impact change at seven yards.

If you really want to shoot wadcutters, stay within standard pressures. The data has been posted above. It was a classic target load to use 2.7 grains Bullseye with a 148 wad cutter. I was told to keep the 148's at 740 fps to keep them tumbling at 50 yards and since lots vary, that might mean 2.8 grains Bullseye pistol powder. If you have never shot 2700 Bullseye, shooting a revolver in rapid fire, five shots in 10 seconds, at 25 yards, is amazingly difficult with one hand. I don't know how they did it. The great double action shooters could put a coin on top the barrel, and double action dry fire without the coin falling off! Competitors were looking for the lightest recoiling round that punched a round hole in a piece of paper. This load was never intended for self defense. It only has to make small groups, not recoil much, and stay stable to 50 yards.
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The single hand unsupported surprises most.
 
I keep loads in my nickel 3” Model 37 no dash to low end target loads like your bullseye/wadcutter loads; I go 3.1 gr BE as max and 2.7 gr BE as a standard load. I don’t want to beat the old girl up, nor do I want to whack my palms with snappy airweight recoil either.

Since your gun is a classic, it may be time to look at a newer +P rated airweight and relegate the 37 to an occasional shooter.

The 37 is at top with a 3” Model 317 .22 and a 3” Model 36-1.
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Stay safe.
 
Hbwc can't be pushed far. They'll blow out the base and leave a ring of lead in your barrel.

There's no reason to jack them up beyond target level velocity. They perform well there.
 
GRIZ22 said:
Hbwc can't be pushed far. They'll blow out the base and leave a ring of lead in your barrel.

There's no reason to jack them up beyond target level velocity. They perform well there.
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That’s not what he’s using. Bevel base wadcutters are a whole different animal and some are harder and intended to be run hot. They’re generally shorter than DEWC or HBWC. And allow for more powder.
 
1KPerDay said:
That’s not what he’s using. Bevel base wadcutters are a whole different animal and some are harder and intended to be run hot. They’re generally shorter than DEWC or HBWC. And allow for more powder.
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Right, the OP is using solid base wadcutters be they bevel base wadcutters or double ended wadcutters. There is a big difference between solid base wadcutters and hollow base wadcutters, but little difference between bevel base wadcutters and double ended wadcutters.

Bevel base wadcutters have a bevel base that allow them the seat easier while double ended wadcutters can be seated with either end out.

But, lots of "wadcutter" loading data for the 38 Special is for hollow base wadcutters which are the bullet of choice for bullseye shooters. HBWC bullets if driven too fast may shed their skirt causing an obstruction in the barrel. If another round is fired before clearing the barrel, it will not have a happy ending.

Bevel base wadcutters or double ended wadcutters can be driven faster than HBWC bullets due to the solid base of the bullets. They are kind of like a SWC bullet with the nose cut off. Now, they may become unstable at some velocity higher than a safe velocity for HBWC but less than full pressure for 38 Special.

The two types of wadcutters are different design bullets and load data does show that. But, the distinction gets lost in the conversation about using wadcutters.
 
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1KPerDay said:
That’s not what he’s using. Bevel base wadcutters are a whole different animal and some are harder and intended to be run hot. They’re generally shorter than DEWC or HBWC. And allow for more powder.
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Okay but you're not getting any realistic performance by pumping them up for an airweight j frame.

Target velocities will perform well.
 
AJC1 said:
The single hand unsupported surprises most.
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That’s how I typically shoot. Left and right handed. Sometimes hunting at distance I’ll use the stand rail or blind tie-down for support. But mostly I practice one handed, off-hand tucked into my belt at the small of the back. Works for me.
 
1KPerDay said:
They’re generally shorter than DEWC or HBWC. And allow for more powder.
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If BBWC, DEWC and HBWC bullets have the same weight, same nose shape, have no grease grooves and they are loaded to same COAL, they will occupy the same amount of space in the case. The space available for powder is the same.
 
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OrangePwrx9 said:
Hoping for Bullseye and W231 charge wts that won't harm my .38 Model 37 yet be stronger than mouse fart target loads. I normally load 2.7 grs of Bullseye behind bevel-base wadcutters for concealed carry & range practice but these may be a bit light. Have gone as high as 3.3 grs Bullseye, but then questioned what I was doing. Got lots of BBWCs and lots of Bullseye & 231 so that's what I plan to use.

The M37, from the late '60s, is quite nice so I don't want to damage it.
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2.7 does seem a bit light, 3.3 doesn’t appear to be crazy, if that’s what you were asking.

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I have favorite loads using W231 for both hollow base and double base Wadcutters.

148gr HBWC over 3.2gr W231 with a CCI-500 SPP.
148gr DEWC over 3.4gr W231 with a CCI-500 SPP.
Both are on the light side but of course they are target loads.

For me those are accurate loads in my guns.

My final favorite load is a 158gr LSWC over 4.0gr W231.
 
Want to thank everyone who responded; learned much. Wadcutters are 'old school' for defense so the modern manuals deal mostly with target loads.

My goal was never to 'push' the wadcutters as hard as possible. Only wanted something stronger than target loads for defense and practice. Stories about bullets 'bouncing off' targets did not fill me with confidence. I did want to keep things within bounds for the Airweight as I didn't want damage. Most of my practice is with a +P rated CA Undercover (steel frame) and a snub nose Security Six.

I've probably a dozen reloading manuals and none explained the difference in wadcutters or wadcutter loading better than this thread. Never understood why wadcutter loadings were often well below SWC loading for bullets nearly the same weight. Learning that wadcutter loads are limited because of the space in the case taken up by the bullet was the answer.

Thanks for passing along loads and for the load manual excerpts. For all the manuals I've got, I see there's a lot more information out there. Thanks too, for the discussion of different types of wadcutters.
Bob
 
I don't think data for SD WC bullet rounds were ever listed in load manuals. They were designed for target work. Of course back then and even today there are reloaders who like them for SD but like you said, data is hard to find. It is very hard to even guess where to stop without having the ability to test the pressures and no other bullet seats that deeply in the case. I'm sorry I can be of more help but anything I would say would be a guess and that dangerous.

Hodgdon is supplying data for the 148gr WC up to 16,000 psi. They velocities well over 900fps on some loads. If you really can achieve 900 fps I see no reason to go further. It looks like HP-38/W231, HS-6 and Universal are delivering the highest velocities and I know first 2 of them produce good accuracy and I'm sure Universal does to.
 
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OrangePwrx9 said:
Want to thank everyone who responded; learned much. Wadcutters are 'old school' for defense so the modern manuals deal mostly with target loads.

My goal was never to 'push' the wadcutters as hard as possible. Only wanted something stronger than target loads for defense and practice. Stories about bullets 'bouncing off' targets did not fill me with confidence. I did want to keep things within bounds for the Airweight as I didn't want damage. Most of my practice is with a +P rated CA Undercover (steel frame) and a snub nose Security Six.

I've probably a dozen reloading manuals and none explained the difference in wadcutters or wadcutter loading better than this thread. Never understood why wadcutter loadings were often well below SWC loading for bullets nearly the same weight. Learning that wadcutter loads are limited because of the space in the case taken up by the bullet was the answer.

Thanks for passing along loads and for the load manual excerpts. For all the manuals I've got, I see there's a lot more information out there. Thanks too, for the discussion of different types of wadcutters.
Bob
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Hollow base and solid wadcuters are different animals. Speed was limited on the hollow base to prevent bullet skirt seperation, and in extreme cases ringing the barrel. If I were loading with SD in mind I would be crimping in the first lube groove and using a solid, which you can push to the leading or pressure limit.
 
"Wadcutters" .....are target bullets that are typically not pushed hard out of any frame....they punch nice clean holes in paper for better scoring-

Push them "hard" enough to make them mild and accurate to shoot.......and then go shoot a bunch!
 
I shoot a lot of plated DEWC from Xtreme, mainly because I shoot indoors a lot and there is minimal smoke left after the shot. These are hard little pills that won’t expand much (if at all) but can be driven to upper WC velocities so penetration should not be an issue. I had the light 2.7 gr BE loads not penetrate some old conveyor belt used as target backing on several occasions. A stouter load like 3.1 gr BE and up would punch through just fine.

If you try plated bullets, any plated bullet will have the thin plating get cut if you put a gorilla-strength roll crimp on your loads. I learned this when I put too much crimp on early loads and I had inaccurate results. I found lots of little holes and tiny bits of plating stuck in my targets, apparently the nose plating was cut and it spun off when it was fired. This was disrupting the bullets flight and giving me crappy results. A moderate to light roll crimp, or a nice taper crimp, is all they can handle. :thumbup:

Stay safe.
 
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