how important is a sixth shot?

[David E]

BigBlock: Where in that article does it say, and I quote "ANY actual case where having a 7th or 8th shot made all the difference between living and dying."

Jeanne Assam fired 10-12 shots, stopping the killer at that church.

You dismiss it, because it goes contrary to your opinion.

The fact remains, if Ms. Assam only had FIVE shots, the killer likely would NOT have been stopped and other innocent people would've been murdered as a result.

.

 

[FullEffect1911]

how important is a sixth shot?

I think this is an easy question to answer actually with another question. How accurate and fast are you with a 5 shot snub? Are you considerably better with a six or seven shot L frame? How about a 6 or 8 shot N frame? 15+1 semi? Choose accordingly to what you are proficient with and can/will carry.

 

[BigBlock]

You're right David, the thousands of people carrying five shot revolvers are all in grave danger. :banghead:

Revolvers have been FIVE shot ever since the 1860s when they were invented. You couldn't load all six and carry safely. Those five shooters put a LOT of people in their graves.

 

[tipoc]

Odd discussion.

Few shooters choose to carry only 5 shots. What they choose is to carry is an easily concealed revolver that can be carried when a larger gun can't be or wouldn't suit the situation (that guest appearance on "Dancing With The Stars" for example). They choose the wheelgun because a small auto, for whatever reason, doesn't fit the person or the situation. Many of these smaller guns carry 5 rounds. So the choice is to carry a small revolver, that it carries only 5 rounds is secondary. It could carry 6 but the one that suits you and the one you got carries 5.

Are 5 rounds enough? Well 5 rounds of what? .45 Colt, .38 Spl., .44 Spl. ? And enough for what? If you know you're walking into trouble a long gun would be the first choice and a 5 shot J frame down the list. But for most of the day to day things (the 6:30 showing of "He's Just Not That Into You" with the spouse, for example) 5 rounds of .38 and a decent knife are more than enough. But if the ex husband has threatened to kill ya a bit more would be helpful.

tipoc

 

[Monster Zero]

Why not five shots of .41 magnum?

Speaking of five shots... I like the SP101, in fact my wife has one. But... I've been kinda taking an interest in the Taurus .41 magnum 5-shooter. Pricey ammo no doubt, but... with a 2.5" barrel, every bit as carry-friendly as a k-frame, and it's gotta be even better stopping power than a .357... right?

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=192&category=Revolver

 

[David E]

Revolvers have been FIVE shot ever since the 1860s when they were invented. You couldn't load all six and carry safely. Those five shooters put a LOT of people in their graves.

This, of course, totally misses the point.

In the old west EVERYONE had 5 shots, altho the serious ones carried more than one gun. So they, too, had MORE than 5 shots and often went to the second (or third) gun.

The # 1 rule is, HAVE A GUN. If you know you won't carry anything larger than a 5-shot J-frame, then the J-frame is the gun for you.

That said, not all guns are equal. J-frames are hard to shoot well, quick to empty and slow to reload.

Still, Rule #1 remains in effect.

 

[hoptob]

Excellent points, tipoc. There is a big difference between 5x 200 gr. LRN 38 spl and 5x full house 357 mags.

BigBlock, why is it not safe to carry single action revolver fully loaded?

Mike

 

[30mag]

Buy two.

 

[drjoker]

statistically....

Statistically, the average lawful civilian gunfight is over in 2.3 shots. This will take care of 68% of all situations. 4.6 shots will take care of 95% of all situations and 6.9 shots will take care of 99% of situations.

In low to medium risk situations, 5 shots will be enough. In high risk situations, 7 shots or more would be the minimum. For a soccer mom, 5 shots would be enough to drive the kids to school and get a latte afterwards. For a woman forced to walk home from work alone downtown, I suggest 7 shots or more.

Therefore, the ammo capacity of the gun you need depends on your daily risk level. For example, in Plano (a suburb outside Dallas), the murder rate is 1 in 100,000 annually. In Dallas, it is 17-19 in 100,000. A night on the town in downtown is gonna require an auto pistol with a high capacity mag. Taking the kids to school in the burbs is gonna require a revolver. Your risk level decides your armament level. So, assess your risk first, then decide.

P.S. if you live in Chicago or Louisiana, the murder rate is 29 to 60 per 100,000. Man, I don't go to those cities because of the crime. I wouldn't feel comfortable in those cities with even an UZI packed away. Stay safe.

 

[JLaw]

"Statistically, the average lawful civilian gunfight is over in 2.3 shots. This will take care of 68% of all situations. 4.6 shots will take care of 95% of all situations and 6.9 shots will take care of 99% of situations." -drjoker

drjoker,

Those do sound like statistics I hear all the time. Is this information available anywhere that you know, is it cited somewhere in a study or report?

(I'm not trying to raise a fuss, I am looking for actual statistics like this to settle a few personal disputes!)

JLaw

EDIT : Please read post #91 for an explanation of the term "personal disputes" I used above, the context is explained there.

 

[tipoc]

(I'm not trying to raise a fuss, I am looking for actual statistics like this to settle a few personal disputes!)

How many personal disputes? Will it take more than 5 rounds? 6? 27?

if you live in Chicago or Louisiana, the murder rate is 29 to 60 per 100,000. Man, I don't go to those cities because of the crime. I wouldn't feel comfortable in those cities with even an UZI packed away.

Given that between Chicago and the entire state of Louisiana there are a couple million people seems like most of those folks have a different assessment of their immediate danger. Maybe they all carry J frames.

Making realistic assessments of potential danger is a skill that needs developing only a part of it has to do with what gun and how many rounds you carry. More of it has to do with behavior. If you get in a lot of barfights, get angry at folks who "steal" your parking space at the mall, cruise the streets and alleys at 3 a.m. looking for hookers, hate cops and punch 'em out every time you run into one, were disapponited that Y2K didn't lead to the collapse of society cuz you were looking forward to Mad Max days, etc. maybe the biggest decision you have to make ain't how many rounds to carry.

Most of us make some assessment of our day to day situations and somehow get by with 5 or 6 rounds and a speed loader or two and never need that. 99.9% of the time, if you carry a gun, your response to potential trouble will be, or should be, the same as if you did not have one on you. Works best that way as there are more useful weapons at hand.

tipoc

 

[Bubba613]

If you don't carry a Glock 19 with Ashley Big Dot front sight you might as well lie down in the gutter and die.

No, really the advantage of the six shot revolver over the five is that the 6 gives more grip and is more controllable in rapid fire. The extra shot is a bonus.
I carry a 6-shot snub and a 5-shot backup and frequently feel over-gunned.

As for internet stories of people who saved their lives with 35 rounds, there are internet stories of people winning millions of dollars. So go out and buy all the lottery tickets you can.

 

[David E]

The 2.3 rounds fired is wrong. That stat is not limited to civilian only encounters and includes warning shots, suicides, accidental discharges, putting down an animal, etc. Clearly this skews the "shots fired" downward.

No, you probably won't need 35 shots, but Jeanne Assam fired 10-12, thereby saving dozens of lives. That badguy had 1000 rds and 3 guns with which to commit his murder and mayhem.

If she'd only had a 5-shot snubby, especially without a reload, dozens would've died.

If the choice was a 5-shot J-frame or a 6-shot Colt Agent, the size.weight difference is so small that it would seem silly to give up that 6th shot.

But enough folks think the size/weight difference IS significant, so they carry the J-frame, often without a reload.

Those folks, like many who have posted in this thread, regard their gun as a talisman instead of a serious fighting tool.

.

 

[David E]

I don't carry a gun for "personal disputes." That term invokes images of minor disagreements.

I carry it strictly for self defense purposes when deadly force may be required.

 

[drjoker]

assess your risk realistically

Well,

The 2.3 shots per incident is from the DOJ and that may include suicides, so the figure might be skewed lower than what really goes on. Police statistics point towards 5-6 shots before the 80's and 9-13 shots in the 90's. In other words, policemen usually emptied their revolvers (<1980) or autopistols (>1990) in a gunfight. This was an issue of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement.

Anyways, my point wasnt' the number of shots fired. My point is to make a realistic assessment of your risk and deal with that rather than an unrealistic scenario. If I'm going to an NRA event or a gun show, I'll carry nothing. No BG is gonna mess with that, so the risk level is zero. If I'm going to the local grocery store in the burbs, I'll carry a revolver or a derringer or a kel-tec p3AT. The risk level is very low. If I'm going to drop off the kids at school, I'll carry a revolver. Gun free zones are inherently dangerous. That's why serial killers always kill there because the citizens are helpless and defenseless there. Thank God I live in Texas. It is legal to carry a gun in your car in Texas even if you are in a gun free zone such as a school. It is legal in the parking lot. If I'm going downtown at night (which I try to avoid), I'll carry a glock 19. If you're expecting trouble, an AK47 is the only way to go. For example, your wife is in the home and as you come home, you see the door has been busted in from the outside. That's when you reach into the gun rack of your pickup and pull out the AK. If nobody's home, I'll call the cops and wait. No property is worth losing my head over.

BTW, you don't need more then 2-3 bullets per assailant if you are well trained. Yes, you will miss if you have a stressful gunfight. However, you can simulate stress in training. I am currently taking a self-defense pistol private lessons and my instructor would randomly pinch me, slap me upside the head, or hit me with his walker to simulate combat stress. I am expected to shoot accurately while being pinched, lightly punched, and smacked upside the head. I practice to ignore stress and shoot accurately despite it, thereby not wasting ammo, even while under stress.

 

[JLaw]

David E wrote - "I don't carry a gun for "personal disputes." That term invokes images of minor disagreements.

I carry it strictly for self defense purposes when deadly force may be required."

Yes sir, that is correct. I carry for the same reasons you do, strictly for defense. I should have worded my statement better...

...By "personal disputes" I am refering to some ongoing debates between myself and a few friends who carry concealed also. We occassionally debate this same thing between ourselves. The reason I asked drjoker if he could cite a source for that data is so that I will have something to back up my argument to them.

JLaw

 

[David E]

BTW, you don't need more then 2-3 bullets per assailant if you are well trained.

Your "risk assessment" is interesting. Me, I'm not psychic, so I carry a gun all the time. If I knew when, exactly, I'd need the gun, I wouldn't go there. Instead, I'd be at the store picking the winning numbers for my lottery ticket.

There are many cases where the badguy took more than 2-3 rds, so don't take too much stock in "2-3 rds will stop anyone!" mantra.

I encourage you to test your highly honed shooting skills at an IDPA or IPSC match. I'd be curious how your "induced stress training" will work for you. (they don't pinch you while you're shooting, just so you know.)

.

 

[David E]

By "personal disputes" I am refering to some ongoing debates between myself and a few friends who carry concealed also. We occassionally debate this same thing between ourselves.

NOW it makes sense. Thanks for the clarification !

.

 

[robsc]

How important is the sixth shot?

The sixth shot is extremely important after you have put down five attackers and the seventh attacker is standing directly behind the sixth.

 

[30mag]

I think that you need to practice reloading alot if you're worried.

 

[SwampWolf]

I can't imagine that anybody involved in a gunfight would ever have complained about having too many bullets at his disposal. If you absolutely knew that you were going to be in a gunfight and you had a choice, let's say, between a Smith 686 and a 686+-who would be so foolish as to opt for the six shot version over the seven shot model? Do you really think all of the training in the world will keep you from missing a shot (or shots) when under fire in the most stressful and uncontrolled event you will probably ever experience in your life? And yes, I understand the importance of good and regular training - over thirty years in le has allowed me to see and experience the vast improvements that we have made in self-defense training techniques over the years. But all other things being as equal as practical, I'll always opt for that extra bullet in a time of dire need. If you need an extra, you really need one.

And as far as gunfighters in the wild west being content with the five-shooters they had available at the time, which weapon do you think Wyatt Earp would have selected had it been available to him from, say a time traveler from the future, as he made his way to the OK Corral: his trusty Peacemaker or a SIG 220?

Finally, some have made much of the supposed tendency of a fellow with a six-shooter to "spray and pray" as opposed to the supposed more resolute guy with the five-shooter. Sorry, but the guy lacking adequate training and discipline will be the one firing with reckless abandon, whether he's armed with a derringer or a MAC 10, and the fellow equipped with the proper training and exercising good mental control will be husbanding his shots, even if armed with a submachine gun.

 

[vikz]

5 shots of 44mag is more than plenty, heck even if you missed the 1st shot, just the sound of the 44mag will scare the crap of anybody, I read some where you dont carry for comfort you carry for safety so carry the biggest caliber you can carry and go from there..

 

[Bubba613]

If she'd only had a 5-shot snubby, especially without a reload, dozens would've died.

Pure conjecture. In any case basing one's lifestyle on one incident is incredibly stupid and short sighted.

Ed Lovette writes that police carried a six shot with a 5 shot backup. This covered more than 90% of incidents. So fewer than 10% required a reload. And that is for police. I don't know how many times private citizens have had to reload but I'll bet not many. I'll take those odds to Vegas any day. Certainly better than risking a jam from a jamomatic when my grip was weak or imperfect.

 

[David E]

It's not conjecture, it's a reasoned conclusion. But maybe only ONE dozen people would've died, or maybe only 8 people......maybe just a couple more before someone else stopped the attack. So, what was your point ?

One thing private citizens do not have is a radio to call for immediate back-up. Cops do.

It's interesting that you cite cops to make your 90% point (let's just overlook that other 10% where 6 shot revolvers were not enough.... ) when cops have left the revolver in droves.

If it worked so well, why not keep it? Maybe because something else works better ? If it works better for cops, why wouldn't it work better for a private citizen ?

You feel "safe" carrying a 5-shot snubby, great. I hope it's enough.

.

 

[SwampWolf]

I'll take those odds to Vegas any day. Certainly better than risking a jam from a jamomatic when my grip was weak or imperfect.

If you're a real betting man, don't carry a gun at all. It's much more comfortable and no need to debate the merits of caliber or type of bullet or if you've secured the right grip or not, let alone whether five rounds are enough or not, because chances ("those odds you referenced") are that you'll never be in a situation where you'd need a gun anyhow. You might even want to visit a lawnmower site if you're interested in increasing the odds of you being injured or killed while pursuing your everyday activities.