How is this legal ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Autogunner1

Member
Joined
May 29, 2015
Messages
13
I've spent days searching forums and reading ATF regs and even purchased the Florida Firearms Law book from Jon H Gutmacher and I've yet to find an actual answer that is more than an opinion.

My question is, if the overall length of a pistol is to be 26", fired by one hand and be considered concealable, how is it legal to have a 14.5" barrel on an AR pistol lower ? An 11.5" barrel puts it right at 26".

Can someone please point out the actual ATF law or reg that states this is legal to be longer than 26" ?

I know the OAL is from the actual muzzle of the barrel, not flash hider etc. to the end of the buffer tube.
 
I don't get the question. Are you thinking there is a maximum length limit for a pistol, and that the 14.5" barrel causes that limit to be exceeded? There is no such limit in maximum length.

Can someone please point out the actual ATF law or reg that states this is legal to be longer than 26" ?
Click to expand...

Regulations don't typically state what is legal. They state what is not. The ATF definition of "pistol" doesn't include any size limits.

The term “Pistol” means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having:

  • a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s);

  • and a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
Click to expand...

 
Thanks Med, Yes I was thinking that the max for a pistol was 26" and had been told that. I also thought it because I read somewhere that the ATF considered a pistol to be fired with one hand and to be concealable.

So I can attach a 14.5" or any length barrel to an AR PISTOL lower and be perfectly legal, Great to know !!

Thanks again !!
 
Last edited:
Everyone is correct, there is no minimum or maxim length requirements for a pistol. The 26" OAL rule only affects rifles and shotguns (we won't get into "firearms" in this discussion).

You can have a 20" barrel on a pistol and it will still be a pistol if it does NOT have a stock and/or it is NOT meant to be fired from the shoulder.
 
12Bravo20 said:
Everyone is correct, there is no minimum or maxim length requirements for a pistol. The 26" OAL rule only affects rifles and shotguns (we won't get into "firearms" in this discussion).

You can have a 20" barrel on a pistol and it will still be a pistol if it does NOT have a stock and/or it is NOT meant to be fired from the shoulder.
Click to expand...

Yes, thank you ALL for your help and info. I appreciate it !!
 
ATF policy is that a handgun must be at least 26 inches to legally be equipped with a vertical foregrip. A 26 inch or greater handgun with a vertical foregrip becomes a "firearm" and it is prohibited to be concealed.
 
Autogunner1 said:
Thanks Med, Yes I was thinking that the max for a pistol was 26" and had been told that. I also thought it because I read somewhere that the ATF considered a pistol to be fired with one hand and to be concealable.

So I can attach a 14.5" or any length barrel to an AR PISTOL lower and be perfectly legal, Great to know !!

Thanks again !!
Click to expand...
The National Firearms Act of 1934 was originally to include handguns as a regulated firearm. The entire reason why the existence of the category of Short Barreled Rifles and Shotguns exist was because lawmakers originally intended to make concealable firearms illegal since the vast majority of criminal activity was with concealed handguns, not Machine Guns like the Thompson SMG or BAR.

The only thing that prevented the NFA from being implemented as it was originally envisioned was that lawmakers realized it would be a massive and daunting task to have every Tom, Dick, and Harry to conform to the law since handguns were abundant in circulation.

So the provision for handguns was removed and everything else stayed.
 
Frank Ettin said:
Why? Please cite legal authority supporting that.
Click to expand...
A handgun with an overall length of 26" or more is t classified as a "firearm" if it has a VFG.

Know that there is no min or max overall length for the pistol. So long as it is "designed to be fired and held by a single hand" and doesn't have a stock, it is a pistol. Now, if you have a "pistol" and you attach a VFG, it no longer is "designed to be fired and held by a single hand", so it changes, legally, and is no longer a "pistol".

If this new configuration is shorter than 26" in overall length, the ATF considers it to be "concealable", and is therefore an Any-Other Weapon, or AOW, and is an NFA regulated item.

However, if this new configuration (pistol + VFG) is 26" or more in OAL, then the ATF considers this to not be "concealable", therefore it cannot be an AOW. In fact, in this configuration, it meets none of the federal law sub-definitions of a firearm, so it is merely defined as the most catch-all legal definition of simply "firearm", which is not an NFA-regulated item. It's in the same nebulous realm as the Mossburg Shockwave, or Pistol-Grip-Only Shotguns, etc.

Such a "firearm" could also have a brace, because again, simply adding a brace does not change it's legal designation.

Look up and read the law. It isn't specific, it is understanding how things change.

26 U.S. Code § 5845
 
Miami_JBT said:
A handgun with an overall length of 26" or more is t classified as a "firearm" if it has a VFG.

Know that there is no min or max overall length for the pistol. So long as it is "designed to be fired and held by a single hand" and doesn't have a stock, it is a pistol. Now, if you have a "pistol" and you attach a VFG, it no longer is "designed to be fired and held by a single hand", so it changes, legally, and is no longer a "pistol".

If this new configuration is shorter than 26" in overall length, the ATF considers it to be "concealable", and is therefore an Any-Other Weapon, or AOW, and is an NFA regulated item.

However, if this new configuration (pistol + VFG) is 26" or more in OAL, then the ATF considers this to not be "concealable", therefore it cannot be an AOW. In fact, in this configuration, it meets none of the federal law sub-definitions of a firearm, so it is merely defined as the most catch-all legal definition of simply "firearm", which is not an NFA-regulated item. It's in the same nebulous realm as the Mossburg Shockwave, or Pistol-Grip-Only Shotguns, etc.

Such a "firearm" could also have a brace, because again, simply adding a brace does not change it's legal designation.

Look up and read the law. It isn't specific, it is understanding how things change.

26 U.S. Code § 5845
Click to expand...

I did "Look up the law". It does not say what you think that it says. Here is the text of 26 USC 5845:

"(a)Firearm
The term “firearm” means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.

shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

destructive device” means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 7684(2), 7685, or 7686 of title 10, United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.

antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

unserviceable firearm” means a firearm which is incapable of discharging a shot by means of an explosive and incapable of being readily restored to a firing condition.

make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under this chapter), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm.

transfer” and the various derivatives of such word, shall include selling, assigning, pledging, leasing, loaning, giving away, or otherwise disposing of.

dealer” means any person, not a manufacturer or importer, engaged in the business of selling, renting, leasing, or loaning firearms and shall include pawnbrokers who accept firearms as collateral for loans.

importer” means any person who is engaged in the business of importing or bringing firearms into the United States.

manufacturer” means any person who is engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms."​

You are certainly correct that the statute isn't specific to your point. But at the same time, your assertion was that a "A handgun with an overall length of 26" or more is t (not) classified as a "firearm" if it has a VFG." (I am assuming that you meant to include the word "not" in place of the "t". That is consistent with the context of your writing.)

You seem to be basing your assertion on your interpretation of the definition of a handgun, combined with a belief that a VFG creates a weapon designed to be fired with two hands. By your personal belief that such is the case does not affect the law. The invitation to provide a legal citation calls for more than personal opinion combined with "It isn't specific, it is understanding how things change." If you're going to argue that point then it's incumbent on you to provide a basis for your assertion (like a published court decision where your view was adopted, or an agency ruling to the same effect). For the record, I'm not an expert on the NFA. I've never filed an case involving the NFA and all of my cases involving NFA weapons were tried in state courts. You may be correct in your assertion, and you may be wrong in your assertion, but you haven't yet provided a legal basis for it.
 
Last edited:
RickD427 said:
....You are certainly correct that the statute isn't specific to your point. But at the same time, your assertion was that a "A handgun with an overall length of 26" or more is t (not) classified as a "firearm" if it has a VFG." (I am assuming that you meant to include the word "not" in place of the "t". That is consistent with the context of your writing.)

You seem to be basing your assertion on your interpretation of the definition of a handgun, combined with a belief that a VFG creates a weapon designed to be fired with two hands. By your personal belief that such is the case does not affect the law. The invitation to provide a legal citation calls for more than personal opinion combined with "It isn't specific, it is understanding how things change." If you're going to argue that point then it's incumbent on you to provide a basis for your assertion (like a published court decision where your view was adopted, or an agency ruling to the same effect). ...
Click to expand...

That is exactly right and very well stated.

One needs to understand that answering legal questions is not about what you think the law means or how it applies. Answering legal questions is about how a judge is likely to decide what the law means and how it applies.

So if one wants to provide a useful answer to a legal question, he needs to first determine and consider the underlying legal authority:
...Primary authorities are the rules of law that are binding upon the courts, government, and individuals. Examples are statutes, regulations, court orders, and court decisions. They are generated by legislatures, courts, and administrative agencies. Secondary authorities are commentaries on the law that do not have binding effect but aid in explaining what the law is or should be....
Click to expand...
And then the issue is how and why would a judge decide a question based on applicable, legal authority.

In real life in the real world, the the legal system decides, through judicial process, disputes, disagreements, controversies, or legal questions. Law, including constitutions, statutes, regulations, and decisions of courts of appeal, is a tool used by courts to decide the the issues brought to court for resolution. While the parties may argue what the law is that is applicable to the case, it's up to the court, in the exercise of its judicial function to decide what law actually does apply and how it applies to the facts to decide the outcome. As the Supreme Court ruled back in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 2 L. Ed. 60, 1 Cranch 137 (1803), 1 Cranch at 177), "...It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is....."
 
People reading the definitions in 26 USC 5845 sometimes get confused by the fact that these definitions only appy to guns covered by this particular part of federal law; that is, machineguns, sawed shotguns, short rifles, etc. For example, the definition of firearm in 26 USC 5845 does not apply to all firearms. The definition of antique firearm in 26 USC 5845 does not apply to all antique firearms.
 
cjwils said:
People reading the definitions in 26 USC 5845 sometimes get confused by the fact that these definitions only appy to guns covered by this particular part of federal law; that is, machineguns, sawed shotguns, short rifles, etc. For example, the definition of firearm in 26 USC 5845 does not apply to all firearms. The definition of antique firearm in 26 USC 5845 does not apply to all antique firearms.
Click to expand...

That’s a basic and important fact that not everyone understands. Statutory definitions only apply to a particular statute or group of statutes. And the statute or group of statutes will be identified, generally as part of the introduction to the list of definitions. That’s true with regard to federal and state statutes.
 
This is tangential but something occurred to me when reading thru this thread.

The term “Pistol” means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having:

  • a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s);

  • and a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
Click to expand...

What would a firearm be if it were designed with a short stock that extended ABOVE the line of the bore and was designed to be fired with the 5th finger instead of the 2nd? Would it still even be a "firearm" as legally defined? I know functionally it would be, but is there a loophole (I hate that term) that would allow a cartridge firing weapon that somehow skirts the definition of a firearm?

Just musing...
 
Spats McGee said:
There is an open letter from 2006 that addresses some of this: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/o...er-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download
Click to expand...

That letter does not address "firearms" also known as "others" that are over 26" OAL designed to be shot using two hands but not designed to be fired from the shoulder. Once you take an AR pistol that is over 26" OAL AND install a VFG, it chances the classification to "firearm" which is not considered concealable by the ATF. Ig you conceal a "firearm" with VFG, it instantly becomes an AOW in the eyes of the ATF.

I could not find any actual determination letters but here is one link explaining it.
https://www.walkertaylorlaw.com/post/aow-loophole-closed

There is a determination letter out there addressed to Franklin Armory discussing this subject.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Rule3
  • Locked
With all this talk on pistol braces and what may or may not happen??
Replies
10
Views
543
Spats McGee
Spats McGee
M
  • Locked
Is building this $10 shotgun legal?
2
Replies
41
Views
16K
lbmii
L
C
  • Locked
pistol grip mauser
Replies
18
Views
2K
ctdonath
C
H
  • Locked
Folding Stock AK Legal In Michigan?
Replies
5
Views
2K
Hari Seldon
H
A
  • Locked
Shoulder Stock to PGO Legality
2
Replies
30
Views
2K
Frank Ettin
Frank Ettin
Back
Top