How long will Vermont hold?

[American By Blood]

Vermont is an anomaly. They're an East Coast state with a high concentration of leftists (Burlington), anti-freedom geography (contiguous with Canada, New York, and Massachusetts), and some of the country's best gun laws. What gives?

I've heard native Vermonters complain about an influx of New Yorkers and how they don't leave their obnoxiousness at the border so I have to assume they don't check their politics either. However, I've personally witnessed a similar influx of Chicagoans to Arizona have the effect of moving the new residents to the right and often into the pro-RKBA camp.

So how long does THR think the Green Mountain state can hold on to its pro-freedom traditions? I'm mainly curious because I'd like to move there someday.

 

[Third_Rail]

For quite a while indeed; the no-CCW required to carry law, for example, is rooted in a state court decision going WAY back. It's not going to have anything happen in terms of having it go away anytime soon.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Vermont is different. Since much of the state is still rural, guns are a part of life. Speaking purely from my personal experience, the leftists there seem to be more of the hippy/libertarian variety - not the government-trusting autoritarian types we have here in Mass.

I began spending time there in 1981 when some friends attended UVM. The drinking age was still 18, as was I; so I was there every other weekend and for a couple of weeks during deer season. Even then, one of the biggest topics of conversation was about the influx of New Yorkers.

 

[LaEscopeta]

As long as things keep going smoothly, it won’t change. Gun control in this country, starting with the 1934 NFA, is spurred by rapidly rising crime and/or decrease in social order. When some people feel unsafe they want the government to protect them, and they are willing to support anti-gun laws, thinking they are protection. When people feel safe, it is hard to convince most people, weather from New York or not, to be interested in guns laws one way or the other.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Vermont isn't gun friendly because of the executive or the legislature.

Vermont is gun friendly because the state supreme court did it's job concerning RKBA properly, thoroughly, and unambiguously back in the early 20th century.


If we'd had those guys on SCOTUS in 1934, NONE of this nonsense would ever have gained a toehold.

 

[Manedwolf]

Hey now, not all of the northeast is that bad.

VT is of course one of THE most free states where 2A is concerned...and yes, it's mostly rural, and even the Burlington art crowd is, as someone said, the "leave me alone" libertarian liberal sort, which is just fine. They don't trust or like government, or ask anything of it. Most of the sorts are rather more the "dreams of living off the grid" sort...which I'm FINE with. Need more of those. They don't ask for any government assistance, welfare, or public works.

NH is also one of the best states in the contiguous 48 for 2A. As long as you're not a criminal, you're good for just about anything you want. No problems.

ME isn't too bad, either.

MA, well, that's a lost cause.

Don't judge the whole region, it's the states just below that are as sharp a contrast as West and East Germany were.

 

[Brother in Arms]

wolf
Maine has nearly the same laws as NH but, I think it does have a slightly larger anti gun sentiment particulary in the portland area. I see southern Maine as a big problem, given its population density and socialist stance.
I think Vermont, Newhampshire, Maine should form a Northern Alliance against mass,conecticutt and rhode island. We don't need there encroachment on our freedom. It's sad as all these states heritage are all steeped in revolution freedom and the right to bear arms, but time can change anything. boston is always trying to blame its gun problems on Maine and Newhampshire. Maybe they should let there citizen protect themselves and they wouldn't have so much problem. Places with heavy firearms restrictions always seem to have the highest crime rates.

Brother in Arms

 

[mp510]

Vermont isn't gun friendly because of the executive or the legislature.

When Howard Dean cam out of the closet, as an anti, on Meet The Press, he said that there was no way he could have stayed in office and not worked with the NRA while he was governor. Your right, 'tis the people.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I think Vermont, Newhampshire, Maine should form a Northern Alliance against mass,conecticutt and rhode island.

And do what? Seriously, comments like this are idiotic. Ok, let's say you form your "Northern Alliance". Your leaders get together in a meeting room, convene the meeting, and.... What? Talk about how the gun laws are bad in Mass, CT, and RI? Make laws that people in other states have to obey? Vow to put up a wall to keep the liberals out (except when they want to spend money shopping or on vacation)?

boston is always trying to blame its gun problems on Maine and Newhampshire. Maybe they should let there citizen protect themselves and they wouldn't have so much problem.

This is sad but true; although I think the blame has lately (and wrongly) been aimed at South Carolina and Vermont. I don't think you should be too concerned about it though. I don't think many people take Menino seriously. I mean, have you heard him talk? You need subtitles to understand the guy.

Plus, it isn't the elected politicians that have been doing most of the talking. "Community leaders" have been doing most of the talking, and are the ones that sponsor the idiotic gun buyback programs.

 

[MartinBrody]

They won't last long

Vermont won't last long. Burlington, "the city", is starting to see an influx in crime from Boston, NYC etc. That combined with liberals moving in from NY & Mass will soon lead to 'sensible' gun control.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Vermont won't last long. Burlington, "the city", is starting to see an influx in crime from Boston, NYC etc. That combined with liberals moving in from NY & Mass will soon lead to 'sensible' gun control.

Burlington is becoming liberal?!?!? Go ahead and Google "Bernie Sanders" and "Peter Clavelle" . They are Socialists (technically members of the Vermont Progressive Party, but Socialist nonetheless).

Bernie, a transplanted New Yorker, was mayor of Burlington from 1981 to 1989 (now he's Vermont's only Congressman), and Clavelle has been Mayor virtually ever since (he stepped down this year). Howard Dean was the Governor for goodness sake! Vermont, and Burlington in particular could hardly get more liberal.

You have to look no further than the Vermont State Constitution to see why your contention that "Vermont won't last long" is very wrong.

Vermont flies in the face of the popular belief that "liberals are gun grabbers and conservatives are pro-gun". It's a matter of semantics, but it's more correctly stated as "Authoritarians are gun grabbers and Libertarians are pro-gun". The Nazis were gun grabbers and they were "conservative" to the extreme of facism. The Stalinists were gun grabbers and they were liberal to the extreme of communism. What these regimes have in common is that they were both very Authoritarian.

 

[toivo]

Speaking purely from my personal experience, the leftists there seem to be more of the hippy/libertarian variety - not the government-trusting autoritarian types we have here in Mass.

That sounds pretty accurate to me. A lot of them moved there in the 60's and 70's because they got fed up with everybody and everything. Their anti-authoritarianism runs pretty deep.

 

[ProguninTN]

Vermont/others

I'm not sure how long it will hold. Others are right that VT, NH & ME have good laws also. They all have problems with anti-transplants, and their urban areas being anti. I suppose as long as the rest of VT opposes Burlington, it might be ok. Although, it's outrageous that Bernie "Socialist" Sanders is in office.

 

[countertop]

The rest of Vermont has little to no power over Burlington (or more precisely Chittiedon (sp) County) where 2/3 of the states population live.

As others have pointed out, it is mostly a leave me alone state as far as the 2nd amendment goes. . . . as are NH and Maine. Each is similar but unique in their own way. As for NYs and M*******s, well, they don't call them flatlanders for nothing.

Most that move up are also (or become) of the leave me alone type. Might like some social programs I abhor, but also want their guns cause they don't trust the government. In other matters, they very much do cause problems, but things like Act 250 (oppressive land use law) are mostly implemented by the citizens and local towns and not by the state - so in that regard, while they sometimes do get into your business, its at a very local level.

One other point

the no-CCW required to carry law, for example,

Technically, it isn't a no-CCW required law. That, is an example of someone with the wrong perspective. You don't need a law to dictate your right. In Vermont, there simply isn't a law one way or the other except to state that local communities have no power to enact their own ordinances.

 

[gezzer]

I expect they will not change, VT has a long time spirit of freedom that goes back to the Rev War. They are now trying to dump the F&G law of no suppresors. When they do they will rate with AK as the best state.

 

[MartinBrody]

You have to look no further than the Vermont State Constitution to see why your contention that "Vermont won't last long" is very wrong.

Eddie C, I checked this out and you have an excellent point here, thank you, I would not have done the research otherwise. Almost every state constitution has good constitutional protection for the RKBA with some notable exceptions including: CA, NY, NJ. I hope you are right.

 

[Third_Rail]

countertop - I did get the point across about carrying, though...


gezzer - where'd you hear about suppressors trying to be legalized? That would be very, very nice indeed.

 

[ptmmatssc]

Brother In Arms , your right about southern Maine . portland is horrible , and Chitwood doesn't help matters . I live more towards central Maine (15 miles above lew/aub ) and have started to see an influx of mass / conn people moving up here , buying up land and trying to get ordinances changed or new ones more to thier liking . Luckily when it comes to gun clubs and ranges the state has sided with the clubs /ranges when these outsiders have moved in and tried to get them shut down because of noise. Considering we are a "blue state" I think we are fortunate that our gun rights haven't been trampled as in other states .

 

[mec]

"When Howard Dean cam out of the closet, as an anti, on Meet The Press, he said that there was no way he could have stayed in office and not worked with the NRA while he was governor. ...."

Sounds familiar. I recall that we heavily supported Nixon against the People's Democratic party candidates and he made appropriate pro gun noises at the time.
After his retirement, he did a Playboy interview and the subject came up. " ..blubbblblug Guns! I can say this now. Guns are an abomination."

 

[gezzer]

From NFA shooters in VT where I go for emgee shoots. They have several reps behind them on it using the argument that suppresors save hearing and will keep ranges open do to low noise.

With the advent of compound bows and croosbows the F&G poaching reason doesn't ring true anymore.

 

[MountainPeak]

Vermont is a liberal state, with mostly liberal politicians. It has been for a long time. Get use to it, or try and change it. Your laws will be changed. It's just a matter of time, if you keep trending to the left. Of course, the rest of the country has to live with your choices too! Darn sad. By the way, my state(NM) ain't perfect either. It does beat the hell out of YOUR elected officials.

 

[Devonai]

I can only speak for friends of mine who live up near Smuggler's Notch, but they believe Vermont will hold out indefinitely. I go to VT all the time but these friends are the only people with whom I've spoken on that subject. So, a sample group of two, FWIW.