How Many Carry a 1911 with FMJ Ammo?

[fal762x51]

No offense but that is just laziness, JHPs expand quiet nicely and perform better on target than FMJ. Why would you limit yourself if the round functions in your carry gun? That doesn't make sense.

Carrying FMJ eliminates one more potential problem. No matter how reliable your 1911 is with JHP, it will probably be even more reliable with FMJ. Given the nature of Murphy's law, we can expect that if a gun is going to fail with JHP, it will do so at the moment you need it most.

I have fired over 300 consecutive rounds of JHP out of my 1911 without so much as a hiccup. It would probably be fine to use JHP in that gun. But I am still going to carry FMJ, because I am obsessed with reliablity over all other issues. JHPs are probably more effective on target, but for sure my FMJ's are going to be more effective than using a jammed gun as a club.

 

[AllisonDT]

I should have stated that with my guns, it's not so much that they won't feed hollowpoints (they all do, as far as I know), it is just that I feel the .45 is effective enough with FMJ's that I don't HAVE to use JHP's. As I see, some of you feel the same way.

You can't mean that. Think this through.

With that line of thinking, you may as well call your life insurance company and tell them to go ahead and lower your payout by $50,000 while still keeping your monthly premium the same amount.

Sounds plain old goofy, doesn't it?

 

[AllisonDT]

Carrying FMJ eliminates one more potential problem.

Just carry a knife then.....

 

[Pyro]

FMJ...JHP...a bullet is a bullet.
Just like any other caliber, it's all about shot placement if you want to put em' down real quick. I have no problem carrying ball ammo in a .45. Now if it was a .357 sig I'd probably opt for a JHP seeing how fast those rounds can zip through things.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Expanding bullets at 850fps are highly overrated, with actual shooting results being close to their FMJ counterparts. They are NOT the same as expanding bullets at 1200fps, or 2100fps. Under the speed of sound, the vaunted "hydrostatic shock" that creates all those marvelous "temporary" cavities, etc, isn't the result of slow moving bullets, and as someone mentioned above, a bullet is a bullet. If you really think the .45 JHP is going to give you marked performance, so be it. I just don't believe that slow bullets deliver uniform or dramatic results. For .357's. or 9mm's, etc, the JHP is needed, and works better at their higher velocities. We tend to lump all JHP's into that higher performance category, but they need the velocity to make them work that well. And against the slight margin of expansion at the slower velocity, the advantage of the reliability of the FMJ might make the FMJ more attractive, as it apparently does to us few who routinely use them that way.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Would some of you that say FMJ is just as good as JHP please show some evidence supporting this.

 

[mljdeckard]

Keep in mind, .45 JHP ammo is specifically designed to perform at the appropriate velocity. I have more confidence in my 230 gr HSTs to perform as expected than any other defensive round.

Having said that, if for some reason I was carrying ball rounds and had to shoot defensively, I wouldn't be wringing my brain because I was caught with mere FMJ ammo. I think that the real world difference in effect between handgun rounds of any type is limited. Some people seem to think that if you shoot 9mm FMJ, the bad guy won't even feel it, and you are going to die, but if you have .45 JHP, then the bad guy will explode when you hit him. they are all handgun rounds and they all suck. They just suck in slightly different degrees. Hollow points help, but I think that nine times out of ten, two or three good hits are going to have the exact same effect, anything from 9mm FMJ to .45

The .45 FMJ/1911 combination has probably saved more soldiers' lives than any other combination. I am not concerned by overpenetration. I want all of the penetration I can get regardless of what I carry.

 

[jackpinesavages]

The Caspian and STI will eat anything I put in the mags. The Para is strictly FMJs. No, it doesn't bother me to run just FMJs-head shots are still explosive.

 

[kgpcr]

I have a springer loaded double stack that is no longer made. I carry +P 210grn HP ammo and i like it

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Even when it is a .45 to start with, it is nice to at least have the option of expanding, to make an even bigger hole. Why not take all the advantages you can get? And there is no reason, in a gun of recent manufacture, to not feed JHPs (within reason). In fact, 1911Tuner has written of some old (WWII era) 1911s that do feed JHPs.

 

[Japle]

Posted by Pyro:
FMJ...JHP...a bullet is a bullet.
Just like any other caliber, it's all about shot placement if you want to put em' down real quick.

Sure, no question. A bullet that expands to 0.8” is the same as a bullet that doesn’t expand at all. Gee, I though everyone knew that!

And of course, placing your shots in a gunfight with a violent felon who’s moving unpredictably is just as easy as placing them on a paper target that’s tacked up on a target frame at a known distance.

Glad you’ve explained that. I was worried!

 

[JTQ]

I do sometimes.

Do I believe hollow point ammo is more effective than ball? Yes. Is it a huge difference? I don't know.

However, sitting in your concealed carry class is a guy with a .380, another with a 5 shot .38 Special, another guy with a 9x18 Makarov. Hey, just about anything you have in your .45ACP 1911 is better than what they are carrying. Then of course you have to consider the other 90% (or 99% or whatever the number is) of the population that doesn't have a weapon.

When you consider all that, maybe carrying ball ammo in your .45ACP 1911 doesn't seem so stupid, goofy, or lazy, or whatever term we may want to use for our fellow THR members that choose to use FMJ ammo.

 

[proven]

my 1911 has eaten anything i've ever fed it reliably. i typically carry a mag of jhp, and a mag of ball for a reload. i have on occasion carried only ball, and never felt uneasy about it.

i never like it when a buddy uses this argument when i question one of his choices, but it applies here. "if you think that it's 'lazy' to carry fmj in a 1911, let me send one your way at 15 yds, and see what you think then."

 

[Ken Rainey]

Yep SharpsDressedMan, I agree with you...

I once was in search of the almighty "super" hollowpoint for whatever caliber pistol I had and would have no less than what was supposedly the "best"...I was (almost) convinced that my super HP would enter the bad guy expand fully and stop just short of exiting his other side leaving a path of destruction thru him that would look like an explosion had occurred in the cavity...but, after clearing my head of the advertisements (that are designed to convince people to buy that "best" bullet) and looking at the facts of what I already knew from mine as well as other's actual experiences and doing some of my own testing to boot, I too am satisfied to use 230 FMJ in my .45 auto...

...and, I don't even feel defenseless before my enemies with FMJ or a LSWC in other calibers - having learned (remembered) that what makes the difference with a handgun round is placement with adequate penetration - that is it my friends - placement with adequate penetration - not whether or not the bullet expands but where it goes...for you see, it's the presence of the bullet in a location of the body that it's not suppose to be in and/or the hole it made in getting there or thru there that will determine it's effectiveness in stopping the threat...the bigger the bullet, the better, but it's location is the deciding factor and more bullets increase that effectiveness...

Knowing what's behind your target as to whether or not you should shoot or from what angle is what takes care of the over penetration worries as much as can be done no matter what type ammunition is used...

Don't get me wrong, expansion of handgun rounds is great, IF it happens at all, as long as the penetration is still adequate. Most of the makers speed them up compared to the FMJ versions, I'm sure this is to aid in expansion...but, especially with a .45, the faster it goes, the harder it kicks...and, if none or little expansion occurs, the further it could over penetrate - remember, no ammunition manufacturer guarantees the expansion (or effectiveness) of their HP handgun bullets - the ads just want you to believe it's guaranteed. Plus, extra recoil and blast are things I don't want. One thing that the premium LE ammo does have is the flash suppressed powders which are nice in low light in the calibers that benefit from them such as 9mm and .40 S&W or from short barrels...something not "needed" as much in the standard low pressure .45 230 FMJ from a 5 inch barrel...or 158s in .38 specials with 4 inch barrels...but every little bit helps...

Using a 230 FMJ at standard speed in a 5 inch or less pistol is not that much of an overly penetrating round with a solid torso (not gut, arm or any other fleshy part) hit...using less than 5 inches of barrel will slow it down even more and also lessen the penetration. One of the reasons I specifically chose the heavy 230 FMJ for my officer's sized pistol was in the hope it would penetrate enough...where the use of a lightweight hollowpoint, especially if it expanded, would only lessen it's penetration - maybe to the point of being inadequate....plus the short stroker's need all the help they can get in the reliability department anyway....and there again, if using a lightweight hollowpoint, especially in a +P load, would deliver more blast and recoil to the user with only the hope of getting expansion that may work against you...

Also note that a lot of the .45 auto pistol makers recommend using standard 230 FMJ ammunition for reliability...ahh yes, reliability - what we need above all else in our chosen defensive handguns...

Using the same ammo for carry that you use for practice and training is another benefit...

And remember that you can never be sure of exactly what your bullet will have to travel thru to get to that place that will be of benefit to you in stopping the threat as soon as possible...in a .45 auto, a 230 FMJ is a pretty good all around bullet to use for "whatever" may come into it's path...

But hey, remember, these are just handgun bullets...

Sigh, I've gotten long winded again...sorry...just sharing the experiences on the road I traveled looking for the "best" handgun bullets...as always YMMV !

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Do you guys that have such faith in the .45 HP's really think they are that much more effective? How far do they get in a body before they START to expand? How far before they are .50 cal, or .60? Do you have any evidence that bad guys fall over dead immediately upon being hit by a JHP and NOT with an FMJ? We have some coroners and ER docs on this forum, and I'll bet their take on this will be different than the general concensus. I can neither prove the similar or disimilar effectiveness of either, as that data is just too subjective to sort out with my limited resouces. I don't have a lab, or lots of data to even go though. Anyone got ANYTHING besides a gut feeling here to share with us? I just am not buying into the "greatest thing since apple pie" theory about .45 JHP's at subsonic velocities.............

 

[Onmilo]

'Why on earth would anyone carry FMJ?'
Because the stuff works way more often than it fails.
Everybody that is under the impression they are invincible because they have XYZombie hollowpoints stuffed in their pistola is kidding only themselves.

 

[sugarmaker]

I don't carry, but if I did (I live in VT so I can if I choose...) the series 70 gold cup NM will be loaded with 230 ball.

 

[Pyro]

Sure, no question. A bullet that expands to 0.8” is the same as a bullet that doesn’t expand at all. Gee, I though everyone knew that!

And of course, placing your shots in a gunfight with a violent felon who’s moving unpredictably is just as easy as placing them on a paper target that’s tacked up on a target frame at a known distance.

Glad you’ve explained that. I was worried!

I like stating the obvious and I'm glad someone took me so literally.
There are quite a few differences between a .45 JHP and a .45 FMJ, yes. But, they will both do their job fine...especially in this caliber.
Shot placement means hitting center mass instead of shooting wildly in utter amazement that your target doesn't want to get shot.

 

[HKGuns]

I carry both, depending on what I happen to have on hand. I never feel under armed with either round. FMJ is far better than carrying a knife or not carrying. Either will get the job done. In fact, I will even carry FMJ 9mm. I don't get obsessive about the ammo I use as I know the reality of me having to ever use it is almost next to zero. However, should the need arise my shot placement should be such that either round will suffice to eliminate the threat.

 

[gc70]

Since shot placement is the most critical element in stopping a threat and most of the action in a real gunfight would be driven by muscle memory, I carry what I practice with.

 

[mavracer]

Expanding bullets at 850fps are highly overrated, with actual shooting results being close to their FMJ counterparts.

maybe 25 or 30 years ago. Todays HST, Golddots and Ranger T series all expand consistantly at 800fps.

Do you guys that have such faith in the .45 HP's really think they are that much more effective?

Yes

How far do they get in a body before they START to expand?

High speed video show they start to open almost immediatly.

How far before they are .50 cal, or .60?

less than 2"

Do you have any evidence that bad guys fall over dead immediately upon being hit by a JHP and NOT with an FMJ?

I've shot a fair amount of game in my lifetime and can tell you.
1. More damage usually works faster to anchor game.
2. FMJ ball ammo does less damage than SWC or Hollow Points.
3. Humans are animals.

Now I wouldn't have a huge problem with carrying ball ammo in my gun, if I absolutely had to as shot placement is still the most important factor, but given that I don't have any compelling reason to carry a less effective round there's going to be hollow points in my SD guns.

 

[jahwarrior]

JHPs in the spring and summer, FMJs in the fall and winter. it gets cold here in PA, and people tend to bundle up, even the bad guys. i don't have to worry about my FMJs getting clogged up with fibers and cloth. my PT1911 shoots anything i feed it, so it's not a reliability issue.

 

[fal762x51]

Now I wouldn't have a huge problem with carrying ball ammo in my gun, if I absolutely had to as shot placement is still the most important factor, but given that I don't have any compelling reason to carry a less effective round there's going to be hollow points in my SD guns.

Everything is a trade off. You are trading presumed improved reliability of the FMJ for presumed improved terminal effectiveness of the JHP. There is nothing wrong with that trade, so long as you are aware of the trade off.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Not me. .45 ball might be a good round, but a .45 JHP or copper HP is better, IMHO.

i don't have to worry about my FMJs getting clogged up with fibers and cloth.

If an HP gets clogged, it will behave more like FMJ. Not sure I see the point of: "IF people bundle up, my HP might act like FMJ, so, to avoid that, I'll load FMJ."

 

[jackpinesavages]

"Since shot placement is the most critical element in stopping a threat and most of the action in a real gunfight would be driven by muscle memory, I carry what I practice with."


This.

I cannot afford to reload or shoot factory JHPs in my practice @ 100-400 rds per month. I NEED to train with what I am carrying and that's 230 gr. FMJ. YMMV.

If you can afford to EFFECTIVELY train on a regular basis with FMJs, GREAT! Wish I could, but I cannot. Even if I could I still don't believe I would, as (a) my training base is FMJs for .45s, and (b) the FTF scenarios are nearly eliminated.