FIVETWOSEVEN
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Must have missed that.
I don't know what you mean.
How Many Carry a 1911 with FMJ Ammo?
- Thread starter SharpsDressedMan
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Must have missed that.
I don't know what you mean.
KungFuNerd
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JHP were not 100% in my 1911.
After repair it was 99%
I have since tweaked the Extractor more but haven't cared enough to burn through JHP to check it.
I don't think many of you have ever owned a 1911.
They have to be set up.
My Glocks will eat anything you put in them.
After repair it was 99%
I have since tweaked the Extractor more but haven't cared enough to burn through JHP to check it.
I don't think many of you have ever owned a 1911.
They have to be set up.
My Glocks will eat anything you put in them.
David E
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A 1% failure rate is totally unacceptable.
We do. Apparently, we have a better gunsmith than you...
My 4" Kimber Compact lightweight is 100% from the factory, as are my Para's and several others.
then carry a Glock!
jahwarrior
Member
that's funny, my Taurus PT1911 has been flawless since i bought it over 3 years ago, without having to "set it up." matter of fact, it's had no problems whatsoever, until the other day, when i noticed the front sight had shifted to the right, which was an easy enough fix. apparently, you have less experience with 1911s than everyone else here.
BeerSleeper
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My new RIA 1911 has fed 230 RN FMJ flawlessly at this point. It has jammed more often than chambered with 200 SWC or 200 FN. That was all I had on hand to try out. I haven't tried yet, but I believe JHP results will be similar to these rounds.
This is no dig on the gun, it's a GI model, which makes it pretty close to the original design, which was for ball ammo. It is pretty commonly known that 1911's generally need a little work to feed non-ball ammo, and I'm looking forward to learning how to do it. That was in fact the main reason I did not spend extra for a pistol that already had this done.
It has FMJ in it, for now, but it hasn't graduated to carry duty yet, either.
This is no dig on the gun, it's a GI model, which makes it pretty close to the original design, which was for ball ammo. It is pretty commonly known that 1911's generally need a little work to feed non-ball ammo, and I'm looking forward to learning how to do it. That was in fact the main reason I did not spend extra for a pistol that already had this done.
It has FMJ in it, for now, but it hasn't graduated to carry duty yet, either.
CajunBass
Member
I don't even own a 1911 anymore, but when I did, I was quite happy to carry FMJ ammo in it. Didn't bother me at all.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
My old, original/correct and unaltered/untweaked USGIs and 20s-era commercial Golt must not have gotten that memo. They all run just fine with hollowpoints and even 200-grain lead SWC...and they do it from the old GI "hardball" magazines. I've got several examples, including a 1913...a 1919...two 1918s...a 1925 Government Model...two Rands...an Ithaca...four Colts...and the Union Switch twins...and none of them can tell the difference between hardball and hollowpoints and SWCs.
And, yeah. I own a few. Here's about half the collection.
And here are a few of my projects in progress...or a least they were. I've finished up with most of'em.
punkndisorderly
Member
I carried fmj years ago when I first started carrying. I had a Springfield Compact and was convinced from reading magazines it wouldn't be reliable with anything else. Eventually, I tried some hollowpoints and, to my amazement, they worked. Then I tried more. They worked, too. I bit the bullet and bought 250 rounds and they worked as well. I switched to jhp and never looked back.
I carry Glock now, so no worries about jhp reliability.
To my knowledge, only one PD issues fmj, and they only issue as a secondary load in case the primary fmj load fails in the case of a barrier. I don't know of any top tier trainer that recommends fmj. I don't know of any modern study that shows parity in performance between fmj and jhp. Everything i've seen shows jhp has an edge in real world performance.
The only reason I can see for carrying fmj is if your carry gun wouldn't feed jhp after trying it, you had no other options for a carry gun, and you couldn't afford a smith to tune your gun for reliability.
I'm switching back to my 1911 for carry in the near future, after a trip to a competent smith for some work. It's reliable with jhp's already. When I switch, jhp's will be on board.
I carry Glock now, so no worries about jhp reliability.
To my knowledge, only one PD issues fmj, and they only issue as a secondary load in case the primary fmj load fails in the case of a barrier. I don't know of any top tier trainer that recommends fmj. I don't know of any modern study that shows parity in performance between fmj and jhp. Everything i've seen shows jhp has an edge in real world performance.
The only reason I can see for carrying fmj is if your carry gun wouldn't feed jhp after trying it, you had no other options for a carry gun, and you couldn't afford a smith to tune your gun for reliability.
I'm switching back to my 1911 for carry in the near future, after a trip to a competent smith for some work. It's reliable with jhp's already. When I switch, jhp's will be on board.
USSR
Member
Quote:
Posted by wch:
I was called as an "expert witness" in a court case where the shooter had fired expanding bullets at a felon; he was convicted of involuntary manslaughter because he didn't use fmj bullets.
Yeah, I'm calling BS on that as well.
Don
Posted by wch:
I was called as an "expert witness" in a court case where the shooter had fired expanding bullets at a felon; he was convicted of involuntary manslaughter because he didn't use fmj bullets.
Yeah, I'm calling BS on that as well.
Don
punkndisorderly
Member
I could see this in NJ (don't they forbid hollowpoints) or if by "expanding" it was some armor peircing, incendiary, flechette of instant death bought from some guy at a gunshow who makes them in his basement.
EvilGenius
Member
The only Remington bulk I could find nearby in the $30-$40 range.
I know prices vary on location, just curious if it's the same stuff you mentioned.
FIVETWOSEVEN
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I still think that it's unfair that you have so many that you can have a box of project 1911s like that.
That's it. I've shot a box of 100 through my XD then I bought another one and use that to load the gun/mags. It isn't Hornady TAP or any other high self defensive ammo but it will still do the job.
EvilGenius
Member
Cool.I still think that it's unfair that you have so many that you can have a box of project 1911s like that.
That's it. I've shot a box of 100 through my XD then I bought another one and use that to load the gun/mags. It isn't Hornady TAP or any other high self defensive ammo but it will still do the job.
Not looking for anything super high end but it's probably better than FMJ and at $40 for 100 a pretty good deal.
mljdeckard
Member
The only gun I have ever needed to have milled to feed hollow-points was a 1st Gen S&W Sigma .40. (One of MANY problems I had with it.) Between myself and my friends, we have all cross-trained with each others' 1911s, from Kimber, Para, Springfield Armory, Auto Ordnance, Wilson, Baer, Sig, S&W, etc, and NONE of them have ever needed any adjustments to feed JHP ammo. (including the G.I. 'vintage' models.) I have only HEARD that a lot of G.I. pistols that came from armories into civilian hands needed to be throated to feed JHP ammo, but I have never personally seen a 1911 that wouldn't feed JHP out of the box.
I'd like to see a reference for that case. Can't imagine that one not going up on appeal.
Just a sobering reminder that such stuff does happen in court:
http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/
IIRC, part of the offense in the Fish trial was that he was carrying a .40, or a 10MM, and that he used 'deadly hollow point' bullets.
"They argued that the defendant was armed with too much fire power on May 11, 2004. "
"And this juror was disturbed by the type of bullets Fish used.
Meagan Elliot, juror: The whole hollow point thing bothered me. That bullet is designed to do as much damage as absolutely possible. It’s designed to kill. "
The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.
When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.
Lessler: Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.
Larson: And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?
Lessler: Yes.
In sumation:
Michael Lessler, prosecutor: Mr. Fish shot him three time in the chest with this high powered gun, hollow point bullets and caused his death. That’s murder.
After the publicity this trial pulled, there is no way they could try him again and find 12 fools to convict him, as they did in the first trial.
Just a sobering reminder that such stuff does happen in court:
http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/
IIRC, part of the offense in the Fish trial was that he was carrying a .40, or a 10MM, and that he used 'deadly hollow point' bullets.
"They argued that the defendant was armed with too much fire power on May 11, 2004. "
"And this juror was disturbed by the type of bullets Fish used.
Meagan Elliot, juror: The whole hollow point thing bothered me. That bullet is designed to do as much damage as absolutely possible. It’s designed to kill. "
The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.
When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.
Lessler: Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.
Larson: And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?
Lessler: Yes.
In sumation:
Michael Lessler, prosecutor: Mr. Fish shot him three time in the chest with this high powered gun, hollow point bullets and caused his death. That’s murder.
After the publicity this trial pulled, there is no way they could try him again and find 12 fools to convict him, as they did in the first trial.
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David E
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Some have cited the .45 FMJ is a good all around choice because they think it works better penetrating barriers like auto glass and car doors. Does it?
200+P Gold Dot JHP penetrates 14.58" of ballistic gelatin AFTER penetrating 1/4" A.S.I. Safety Glass. It expanded to .647" The 230, 13.1", expanding to .609"
Thru 20 gauge steel, they penetrate 22.8" and 19.45" respectively.
So tell me again what I'm giving up to FMJ when it comes to barriers.
What the FMJ user is giving up is expansion in flesh. The 200 grain gets to .819, the 230 blooms to .711.
FMJ? Stays steady at .451
Choosing FMJ for feed reliability is one thing, but I'd find a good gunsmith instead.
200+P Gold Dot JHP penetrates 14.58" of ballistic gelatin AFTER penetrating 1/4" A.S.I. Safety Glass. It expanded to .647" The 230, 13.1", expanding to .609"
Thru 20 gauge steel, they penetrate 22.8" and 19.45" respectively.
So tell me again what I'm giving up to FMJ when it comes to barriers.
What the FMJ user is giving up is expansion in flesh. The 200 grain gets to .819, the 230 blooms to .711.
FMJ? Stays steady at .451
Choosing FMJ for feed reliability is one thing, but I'd find a good gunsmith instead.
For me it is simple. I use HPs for all of my handguns with the exception of my .380, which gets FMJ for penetration. Yes, I use HPs in my 45, 10MM, 40 cal.
Eventhough I'm getting old, I do believe in technology advances and see the benefits of the HP design. Reliability is important, but if the gun will not feed HPs then I need to fix the gun, mag., or use another's design of HP ammo.
Eventhough I'm getting old, I do believe in technology advances and see the benefits of the HP design. Reliability is important, but if the gun will not feed HPs then I need to fix the gun, mag., or use another's design of HP ammo.
What I don't get about the entire issue is how the technology is somehow new?
Didn't the .45 Colt use soft lead bullets, around 950 fps, that expanded well,
and were very effective?
Sure, they didn't have a jacket to feed into an automatic, but the actual effect is the same as, or better then the .45 ACP ammunition we have now.
Why? The .45 Colt used a heavier bullet, and still expands, with more velocity then most .45 ACP rounds.
SDM originally asks,
"Anyone else less than enchanted with JHP's in the .45?"
I might fit into that category. I don't see a reason to substitute expansion,
by using a hollow point, and removing bullet weight, for bullet weight, and added velocity.
I would like more velocity, and more bullet weight, to get back to the .45 Colt specs. My goal would be a 260 grain bullet, at least at 950 fps, that still expands. Another avenue would be a flat point, made from pure lead, with a very thin copper jacket. It would feed, but, by not removing the weight from the hollow point, you can have a shorter bullet, that leaves more room for powder. The added speed would make expansion more reliable.
Buffalobore has something like this:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214
255 grains at 925 fps.
I have a bunch of friends that SWEAR by the .45 Colt, with LFN type bullets like the above, but at 1100 fps.
It doesn't need to expand, since bullet design and velocity cut a considerable hole in whatever you shoot.
There are those who also think the advantage lies in the above, but hard cast, and non-expanding.
If you look at these high speed pictures, you can see the cone shaped pressure wave created by HP ammo.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1950.htm
The flat point hard cast bullets don't slow down nearly as much, due to lack of expansion, and they create a hole more like a shotgun slug, big, with a more cylindrical, longer wound channel. The advantage of the added speed through the target is it turns any hard matter, such as bone, into a secondary projectile, and high speed, that causes devastating damage on it's own.
Here is a picture of a LFN, this one .50 caliber, at 950 fps, and the exit whole it left in a deer:
.300 Win mag for size comparision.
Here is a .45 Colt exit hole on another deer:
1150 fps hard cast.
So, I am less then enamored with current .45 ACP offerings.
I think the avenue most of the ammo has taken is a combination of Political
Correctness, compromise, and the need to be able to shoot in older guns.
I would like more bullet weight, and more speed. My solution for 1911's has been 230 grain Speer HP's at 1100 fps, that being .45 Super. I would also feel pretty good about 200 grains at 1200 fps, or, LFN type bullets at similar speeds.
A load I've always wanted, but haven't seen much of is a Truncated cone 185 grain hard cast bullet, at 1300-1400 fps, much like the old .451Detonics. You would get limited expansion, a BIG hole due to the velocity and
bullet construction, and a flat shooting round, with relatively little recoil.
Didn't the .45 Colt use soft lead bullets, around 950 fps, that expanded well,
and were very effective?
Sure, they didn't have a jacket to feed into an automatic, but the actual effect is the same as, or better then the .45 ACP ammunition we have now.
Why? The .45 Colt used a heavier bullet, and still expands, with more velocity then most .45 ACP rounds.
SDM originally asks,
"Anyone else less than enchanted with JHP's in the .45?"
I might fit into that category. I don't see a reason to substitute expansion,
by using a hollow point, and removing bullet weight, for bullet weight, and added velocity.
I would like more velocity, and more bullet weight, to get back to the .45 Colt specs. My goal would be a 260 grain bullet, at least at 950 fps, that still expands. Another avenue would be a flat point, made from pure lead, with a very thin copper jacket. It would feed, but, by not removing the weight from the hollow point, you can have a shorter bullet, that leaves more room for powder. The added speed would make expansion more reliable.
Buffalobore has something like this:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214
255 grains at 925 fps.
I have a bunch of friends that SWEAR by the .45 Colt, with LFN type bullets like the above, but at 1100 fps.
It doesn't need to expand, since bullet design and velocity cut a considerable hole in whatever you shoot.
There are those who also think the advantage lies in the above, but hard cast, and non-expanding.
If you look at these high speed pictures, you can see the cone shaped pressure wave created by HP ammo.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1950.htm
The flat point hard cast bullets don't slow down nearly as much, due to lack of expansion, and they create a hole more like a shotgun slug, big, with a more cylindrical, longer wound channel. The advantage of the added speed through the target is it turns any hard matter, such as bone, into a secondary projectile, and high speed, that causes devastating damage on it's own.
Here is a picture of a LFN, this one .50 caliber, at 950 fps, and the exit whole it left in a deer:
.300 Win mag for size comparision.
Here is a .45 Colt exit hole on another deer:
1150 fps hard cast.
So, I am less then enamored with current .45 ACP offerings.
I think the avenue most of the ammo has taken is a combination of Political
Correctness, compromise, and the need to be able to shoot in older guns.
I would like more bullet weight, and more speed. My solution for 1911's has been 230 grain Speer HP's at 1100 fps, that being .45 Super. I would also feel pretty good about 200 grains at 1200 fps, or, LFN type bullets at similar speeds.
A load I've always wanted, but haven't seen much of is a Truncated cone 185 grain hard cast bullet, at 1300-1400 fps, much like the old .451Detonics. You would get limited expansion, a BIG hole due to the velocity and
bullet construction, and a flat shooting round, with relatively little recoil.
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S.B.
Member
USSR, Pertaining to your picture on page 1 of this thread, what was the medium used and what does the 25-1 indicate below? Distance from target? How much penetration did you get? Or just pretty bullets all in a row?
Steve
Steve
gunguy0829
Member
dont have a 1911, but all my pistols are loaded with fmj
S.B.
Member
The only reason the Geneva convention lists FMJ bullets is because Germany wanted to use their Lugers and that's the only bullet they could get them to shoot. Bullet design has certainly advanced since then.
Steve
Steve
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