How Many Carry a 1911 with FMJ Ammo?

[Prosser]

I'm really leaning towards coming up with a Cast LFN load, maybe 200 grains, at 1200 fps.
If I can find the bullets hard enough, and cheap enough, I can afford to shoot what I practice with, something I enjoyed about the early 80's and cheap speer hollow points.

My discussion with my gunsmith, and his comments about even 250 grain soft lead bullets turning off path surprised me. Since it's impractical to go much past 255-260 grains in the .45 ACP/ Detonics, I have to look at another way to get straight penetration, and accuracy. Bullet design and velocity will create a wound channel as well as expanding bullets. I can't make up my mind if 1300-1350 fps with a 185 grain
LFN or 200 grains LFN at 1200 fps is the way to go. The lighter bullet has a better chance of deforming, and becoming an expanding bullet. With that light a bullet, I don't know if thats a good thing or not. 200 grains at 1200 fps I would think would expand, if it hit's something like bone, while still having plenty of energy.

Have to do more research.

 

[Ken Rainey]

Those loads sound awfully stout...are any of those loads controllable for fast followup shots? ... especially if shooting one handed? ...

 

[Prosser]

Recoil out of a full sized Kimber:

45 Super 185 1300 694
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 17 fps.
45 Super 200 1200 639
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 17 fps.
45 Super 230 1100 617
Recoil Energy of 11 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.

Your average 9MM recoils in the 6 ft-lb range, and in a full sized 1911,
.45 ACP plus P, 230 grains at 950 fps:

Recoil Energy of 8 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 15 fps.

So, you add about 20-25% in recoil going to 45 Super.
Does that affect your second shots? Sure, the difference between 9mm and .45 ACP is about the same jump. Never timed it, but it never bothered me much.

 

[BeerSleeper]

I am curious, after 8 pages of discussion, has anyone changed their mind?

No. Ammo selection, terminal ballistics, caliber choices, and glock opinions are all religious matters. The best you can hope for is to be listened to courteously, no one's going to change their mind, and they're all going to their same old respective house of worship next coming sunday.

 

[Japle]

Here’s what three loads look like before and after.



The hardball load didn’t require any “after” example. We all know it’s going to look the same.

The middle round is a 230 gr XTP that went through a hog. It was loaded (by me) to an inadequate velocity and didn’t expand worth a whoop.

The right-hand round is a 185 gr Remington JHP loaded pretty hot. It also went through a hog and expanded to .75”.

I don’t think any commentary is required.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

COMMENT (anyway). What about the need for penetration? Which one will penetrate deepest? If life were about uninterrupted bullet paths, then the expanding bullet would be the best. But, shootings are like a box of chocolates: you never know what you are going to get. And if you need to shoot THROUGH something, then the hardball might be the best. Compromise, anyone?

 

[Japle]

Posted by SDM:
What about the need for penetration? Which one will penetrate deepest? If life were about uninterrupted bullet paths, then the expanding bullet would be the best. But, shootings are like a box of chocolates: you never know what you are going to get. And if you need to shoot THROUGH something, then the hardball might be the best. Compromise, anyone?

Are you saying FMJ is a compromise bullet? Is using the bullet that will give the deepest penetration without any expansion a compromise?

If I have a bullet that will penetrate through 13" of hog torso, expand to .75" and stop under the hide on the other side, is that better or worse than a bullet that penetrates 13 1/2" of hog torso, and doesn't expand at all?

 

[mljdeckard]

No. Any premium JHP load is highly likely to penetrate at least 12" in ballistic gel. Whether it expands or not. Bullets with higher mass tend to penetrate further.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Bullets that do not expand tend to penetrate deeper. What one is willing to settle for might give the answer as to what type of bullet, bullet weight, and how much pentration is needed for each of us.

 

[willypete]

Japle, just for my own curiosity and handloading knowledge, how fast/slow were the HP bullets going?

 

[jmstevens2]

Here's my point, made for me in the last 8 pages: what do you train with?

Most everyone who picks HPs has stated they "carry" HPs. Fine, but if you're training with xx brand 230gr. ball realize that it's POI may be different than the hot 1XX gr. JHP you are taking to carry.

Training ammo. for head shots. Make your headshots. Carry what you train with.

Good reason to use Speer Gold dot to carry (after assuring it likes them) and training with Lawman (designed to be training ammo for the Gold Dots).

I don't know of any others that do this.

 

[jackpinesavages]

Interesting, thanks Jm....

 

[jmstevens2]

I am told they designed it so that the PDs could have training ammo much cheaper than duty ammo and have the same POA. Hence the name Lawman.

 

[KungFuNerd]

My mind isn't "changed".
My 1911 is ACCURATE and 100% reliable with FMJ.

As soon as I can confirm reliability with JHP I'll switch.
I just bought 100 rounds of cheap JHP to test out.

The NEXT question is "do you need fancy self defense ammo or is run of the mill JHP adequate"

 

[Lucky Derby]

9 pages now.
I personally use WWB JHP in .45 ACP. Why? Because I can afford enough of it to ensure that it will function reliably.
If it wasn't available, I would carry FMJ, and not loose any sleep over it.

 

[Japle]

Willypete:

The 230 gr XTP was clocked at 860 fps out of my S&W 625JM.

The 185 gr Remington JHP was loaded to 1057 in my XD45.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

As soon as I can confirm reliability with JHP I'll switch.

I actually do this myself, I only load a defensive gun with what I've already shot till I can run some JHP through it.

The NEXT question is "do you need fancy self defense ammo or is run of the mill JHP adequate"

I always forget the name but there is one (expensive) brand that expands in nearly all cases where alot of other brands get clogged up. IMO it doesn't really matter with most brands. I myself just carry cheap Remington JHP.

 

[jmstevens2]

Do you mean the Hornaday Critical Defense rounds? The hollowpoint is filled with a plastic to prevent it from clogging up with clothing and such.

 

[BeerSleeper]

I never understood the concept of "fill it up with stuff to keep it from filling up with stuff".

It just seems like a "you can't fire me, I quit" solution.

 

[mavracer]

The NEXT question is "do you need fancy self defense ammo or is run of the mill JHP adequate"

Only if you want them to expand more consistantly over a wider variety of medium. JHP's designed 25+ years ago don't expand reliably under 1000fps. Modern designs with their tapered jackets can control expansion so that they can expand easier without over-expanding and coming apart. Bonded jackets eliminates separation ensuring deep penatration.

 

[weisse52]

Very interesting thread...

I carry 230 FMJ in my 1911's and feel perfectly fine with my choice. Any other caliber and it is a hollow point. I do have a few boxes of Federal Hydra Shock and have at varies times carried with that. But I did not feel any better about carrying the hollow point.

The nice thing about a .45 is that I CAN choice a FMJ and still be confident in the round.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

I keep PDX1 230gr JHP's in both my primary and secondary magazines for my 1911. My backup magazine I keep in the glovebox is a standard blued 7 rounder full of 1953 USGI 230gr FMJ. If I am into a fight 16 rounds and still need more, I feel like those last 7 had better be deep penetrating.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Do you mean the Hornaday Critical Defense rounds? The hollowpoint is filled with a plastic to prevent it from clogging up with clothing and such.

It's not TAP. Surprisingly, TAP was one of the brands that would get clogged by bone simulate.

 

[KungFuNerd]

So after adjusting the Extractor on my 1911 I went to Walmart and bought 200 rounds of Remington UMC JHP (cheap).
I shot all of it except for 17 rounds (to fill up my carry mags+1)

Worked flawlessly in both mags.
I know these aren't great JHP....But I'm not buying 200 rounds of Golden Saber (my 9mm carry)

 

[Prosser]

I can see it at the meetings between the head of the ammo companies:

"Guys. I've got this great idea on how to sell lead at gold prices. It's called the hollow point..."