Really? Show me a 9mm as small, thin and light as an LCP for example.
How many of you own a 380?
- Thread starter viking499
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Ok list just one.
Ok I have both and if you think the LC9 will slip into your pocket as easily as an LCP your badly mistaken. A picture is worth a thousand words. Here are the two side by side.
toivo
Member
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but the LCP weighs in at 9.4 oz. and the LC9 at 17.1.
That said, I'm not a fan of the micro nines. Glock 26 and Beretta Nano are the smallest nines I can comfortably shoot. I've tried the Kahr and the PF9, and found both to be nasty: lots of snap and muzzle flip. Some people are able to shoot them well, but I'm not.
That said, I'm not a fan of the micro nines. Glock 26 and Beretta Nano are the smallest nines I can comfortably shoot. I've tried the Kahr and the PF9, and found both to be nasty: lots of snap and muzzle flip. Some people are able to shoot them well, but I'm not.
sirgilligan
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I really like how well my .380 ACP shoots and how flat it is so it doesn't "print".
This is 10 yards, free standing... it will do it all day long. The only problem with accuracy is me, if I were better the groups would be more precise.
This is 10 yards, free standing... it will do it all day long. The only problem with accuracy is me, if I were better the groups would be more precise.
I'm heat intolerant, and dress as lightly in the summer as anyone yet I still can carry my 9mm compact wearing shorts and tee shirt.
Same while dressing for business.
Not a criticism for those who prefer the .380, but I've never found it necessary to carry smaller due to dress.
Same while dressing for business.
Not a criticism for those who prefer the .380, but I've never found it necessary to carry smaller due to dress.
usp9
Member
If you want to pocket carry a .380, then a Seecamp is even better. Compared to the .380 above, (sort of... Keltec Vs Ruger)
Hokkmike
Member
A gun writer recently penned that the pocket .380's are the current rage. Many, many being sold. I guess he is right. +1 for me.
Well, actually there is another reason that I pocket carry my P380 at times. That is the fact that until I lose this "spare tire" I'm carrying around I just can't conceal well with light clothing such as t-shirts and such. My body shape also makes it very uncomfortable for me to carry IWB so it's either pocket or OWB for me.
My New Years resolution is to slim down considerably -- but you know how that goes most times.
My New Years resolution is to slim down considerably -- but you know how that goes most times.
Yes the Seecamp is even smaller than most of the other micro 380s, but the problem I have with the Seecamp is it is a blowback and after firing one and experiencing the felt recoil I decided it was not the gun for me.
If you want to pocket carry a .380, then a Seecamp is even better. Compared to the .380 above, (sort of... Keltec Vs Ruger)
I carry a 380 most of the time in my right pocket. KT P3AT, Bodyguard, and LCP on a fairly regular basis. It comes down to weight more than anything. The pocket 9mms are small enough for most pockets but tend to weigh a lot more.
I also own a P238, Bersa Thunder and a bunch of Makarov pistols but all of them are a bit bigger and heavier than the pocket 380's.
None of the pocket 380s are a "joy" to shoot at the range. I have Hogue grips, pink ones even, and that helps but I don't want to go and shoot 300 rounds in a day with any of the guns. I shoot them enough to be as proficient as I feel I need to be with these guns. I basically want to be able to draw the gun and put most of the rounds in a target at 10 yards or less. The larger 380s are much more enjoyable to shoot.
I also own a P238, Bersa Thunder and a bunch of Makarov pistols but all of them are a bit bigger and heavier than the pocket 380's.
None of the pocket 380s are a "joy" to shoot at the range. I have Hogue grips, pink ones even, and that helps but I don't want to go and shoot 300 rounds in a day with any of the guns. I shoot them enough to be as proficient as I feel I need to be with these guns. I basically want to be able to draw the gun and put most of the rounds in a target at 10 yards or less. The larger 380s are much more enjoyable to shoot.
For me it has to do with size, dress, and situation. I have owned a P-32, P3AT, and currently own a Ruger LCP. They are usually back up guns to larger carry pieces. But their are times when they are only gun I can carry because they simply disappear in pocket with a good holster.
No the .380 is not the perfect cartridge for CCW. But years ago when I worked in the private security I saw two shootings with .380's. Both with fmj ammo (many years ago I don't even know if their were any JHP rounds in .380 back then). Years apart but both guys hit in the leg. Both shattered the femr bone in the leg. Both guys dropped right there screaming and it was a bloody mess! Bone fragments were thrown all through their legs. Nasty wound!
Both survived. But they were prety much out of the fight. So as always. Place multiple shots from a .380 into the chest, neck, and face and the .380 will do it's job. one thing I would say is make sure you have a round that allows the little bullet to penetrate deep. That's were a lot of the .380 JHP's fall short. Big expansion means nothing if you don't reach vitals So the little .380's are ninche guns to me. The new ones are the same size that the .25's used to be. Not powerhouses but quite a step up from the .25. Modern versions of the "vest pocket guns".
No the .380 is not the perfect cartridge for CCW. But years ago when I worked in the private security I saw two shootings with .380's. Both with fmj ammo (many years ago I don't even know if their were any JHP rounds in .380 back then). Years apart but both guys hit in the leg. Both shattered the femr bone in the leg. Both guys dropped right there screaming and it was a bloody mess! Bone fragments were thrown all through their legs. Nasty wound!
Both survived. But they were prety much out of the fight. So as always. Place multiple shots from a .380 into the chest, neck, and face and the .380 will do it's job. one thing I would say is make sure you have a round that allows the little bullet to penetrate deep. That's were a lot of the .380 JHP's fall short. Big expansion means nothing if you don't reach vitals So the little .380's are ninche guns to me. The new ones are the same size that the .25's used to be. Not powerhouses but quite a step up from the .25. Modern versions of the "vest pocket guns".
shootingthebreeze
Member
I have a Kahr .45 and a Kahr .380.
With the .380, the key is range practice. We have a 25 yard range close by and I spent last summer a lot of time focusing on grouping my shots with my .380. The Kahr responded quite well and was consistent as I practiced, practiced and practiced.
The Kahr .45 I love as well and is a good carry firearm but, it's a .45, which means heavy when loaded. The .380 when carried is hardly noticeable.
One is not going to practice artillery with a .380; it is a close range weapon, and for that matter the Kahr .45 is a close range weapon as well. Placement, however, with the .380 is critical thus practice at the range is very important.
I consider the .380 and good defense weapon as long as one is totally familiar with it and has practiced a lot at the range. I am confident that I could deliver 3 or 5 head shots if I needed (hopefully never) in a self defense situation. I have practiced grouping my shots within such a dimension on my target paper. Anyone hit in the head with a .380 will quickly stop their attack.
I like my .380 and anyone who carries one should concentrate on precision firing at the range. It will not be easy but with practice your skills will improve immensely.
With the .380, the key is range practice. We have a 25 yard range close by and I spent last summer a lot of time focusing on grouping my shots with my .380. The Kahr responded quite well and was consistent as I practiced, practiced and practiced.
The Kahr .45 I love as well and is a good carry firearm but, it's a .45, which means heavy when loaded. The .380 when carried is hardly noticeable.
One is not going to practice artillery with a .380; it is a close range weapon, and for that matter the Kahr .45 is a close range weapon as well. Placement, however, with the .380 is critical thus practice at the range is very important.
I consider the .380 and good defense weapon as long as one is totally familiar with it and has practiced a lot at the range. I am confident that I could deliver 3 or 5 head shots if I needed (hopefully never) in a self defense situation. I have practiced grouping my shots within such a dimension on my target paper. Anyone hit in the head with a .380 will quickly stop their attack.
I like my .380 and anyone who carries one should concentrate on precision firing at the range. It will not be easy but with practice your skills will improve immensely.
I think the argument of the gun size between the .380 ACP and 9mm Luger was based on guns such as the Walther and Bersa Thunder.
Yes, they are the same size, but I can keep my 380 ACP Bersa Thunder in a 4" target as fast as I can pull the trigger. I have shot an LC9, and I could not. With practice I might could, but I don't think so.
I'd like to have a 9mm as I have much ammo for one, and I have to buy ammo for the 380 because I dislike picking up brass from the little gun that throws brass from here to Sunday.
I also like the form factor of the Bersa 380. I have the "Combat" model (enter laughter here), but it has Glock sights, and a really nice fingered rubber grip. The gun has a smooth trigger and very little take up when in single action.
The gun hates PDX, Critical Defense and Zombie Max. You cannot get that to group no matter how close you are shooting.
It loves Winchester Ranger-T and Winchester FMJ flat nose ammo. I am waiting to try some Underwood 380 +P with the Gold Dots, but I am really thinking of settling for the Winchester White Box FMJ flat nose as it is the most accurate I have shot. It has somewhat of a meplat. It feeds good, and is reliable, readily available in my area, and will penetrate at least 18" in gel. Which means to me that it will break bone, and still hit lungs, arteries, and heart matter to stop a threat if needed.
I carry 8+1 with two 8 round mags in a pouch. The gun is IWB on the right side, and is easy to get to. I am also a little round on the hip. So wearing t-shirts and such doesn't allow me to carry an auto pistol on the hip OWB. I am anxious to try a Ranger Belt and Raven Kydex holster for IWB or possibly OWB because it would pull the gun real close to me.
I'd love to have an XDS or a Glock 36, but the Glock 36 hurt my pinky to much, and I was having the same problem when shooting an XDS.
If not carrying the Bersa, I am still carrying a small .32 caliber H&R Magnum J-Frame. Make no ifs, ands, or buts about the .32 H&R Magnum from a stub nose revolver. It hits, and it hits hard. It will penetrate very well with 100 grain XTP bullets, or I am carrying a Rossi M720 .44 Special IWB with a large button up with wool on the inside shirt over a t-shirt. A true winter only shirt.
Yes, they are the same size, but I can keep my 380 ACP Bersa Thunder in a 4" target as fast as I can pull the trigger. I have shot an LC9, and I could not. With practice I might could, but I don't think so.
I'd like to have a 9mm as I have much ammo for one, and I have to buy ammo for the 380 because I dislike picking up brass from the little gun that throws brass from here to Sunday.
I also like the form factor of the Bersa 380. I have the "Combat" model (enter laughter here), but it has Glock sights, and a really nice fingered rubber grip. The gun has a smooth trigger and very little take up when in single action.
The gun hates PDX, Critical Defense and Zombie Max. You cannot get that to group no matter how close you are shooting.
It loves Winchester Ranger-T and Winchester FMJ flat nose ammo. I am waiting to try some Underwood 380 +P with the Gold Dots, but I am really thinking of settling for the Winchester White Box FMJ flat nose as it is the most accurate I have shot. It has somewhat of a meplat. It feeds good, and is reliable, readily available in my area, and will penetrate at least 18" in gel. Which means to me that it will break bone, and still hit lungs, arteries, and heart matter to stop a threat if needed.
I carry 8+1 with two 8 round mags in a pouch. The gun is IWB on the right side, and is easy to get to. I am also a little round on the hip. So wearing t-shirts and such doesn't allow me to carry an auto pistol on the hip OWB. I am anxious to try a Ranger Belt and Raven Kydex holster for IWB or possibly OWB because it would pull the gun real close to me.
I'd love to have an XDS or a Glock 36, but the Glock 36 hurt my pinky to much, and I was having the same problem when shooting an XDS.
If not carrying the Bersa, I am still carrying a small .32 caliber H&R Magnum J-Frame. Make no ifs, ands, or buts about the .32 H&R Magnum from a stub nose revolver. It hits, and it hits hard. It will penetrate very well with 100 grain XTP bullets, or I am carrying a Rossi M720 .44 Special IWB with a large button up with wool on the inside shirt over a t-shirt. A true winter only shirt.
moojpg2
Member
concealment is king sometimes
I just picked up a P238 Equinox, and a Bodyguard .380 this morning, and put a couple hundred rounds through each. The P238 is going to be my EDC pistol. I work as a loss prevention manager in a multi-floor, high end, retail store, in a busy mall. We apprehend some real dirt bags. Catch is, i'm in MA, and for the sake of professionalism, and the threat of some hippie calling the cops and possibly losing my unrestricted LTC-A that is difficult to get in the first place, nobody I deal with on a day to day basis at work, be it customer, belligerent drug addict shoplifter, or co-worker, can notice I have the pistol. I'm 5'7", 185lbs, about 7-8% body fat, and do rx'd crossfit workouts religiously. I wear somewhat fitted clothes because I'm single and work hard to be in the shape I'm in. This brings me to the need for a tiny pistol that still has some nut. Only thing that fits that bill is a .380. I have, or have had, a lot of the other pistols mentioned here. This includes the m&p 40c, lc9, lcp, 1911's, j frames, compact glocks, etc. I usually carry the M&P 40c when I'm out on my days off, or hiking, etc, but this little p238 just plain disappears IWB and it's still an accurate, well made, pistol with very good sights, that I can shoot well at short to medium range. The lcp is cheaper, was all the rage when it came out, and it's fine for what it is, but let's face it, the sights blow, the trigger is usually poor at best, and it just feels cheap. There are better things out there now in the sub compact .380 class. I will say the bodyguard is definitely a step above the lcp. It is much easier to shoot accurately than an lcp, the built in laser works great, and is nice for those that like lasers, and it at least has real sights. I don't like it as much as the P238 though so I'm probably gonna transfer it to my father because he has been talking about getting a small pocket gun and he's on a fixed income. I know there are many on here that say its stupid to carry anything smaller than 9mm because the "experts" at the FBI say it isn't adequate, and they don't care if someone is offended by their gun, but not all of us can have that mentality or we'd be unemployed or possibly sitting in a court room. Bottom line is .380 will kill someone just as dead, and just as quick, as any other round in skilled hands, and it has done it quite well since John Browning designed it in 1908. It has been used by military, law enforcement, and everyone in between and we still use it today so i'm thinking there has to be some good reason for that. Sure it isn't gonna penetrate all the way through to the spine of a 225lb man and stop him while he's high on adrenaline from a fire fight, in 6 layers of wool military winter gear, but we don't usually face those types of issues in today's world. I'm more worried about the 135lb bony, cracked out, toothless, heroine addict that smells like a dumpster coming at me with a rusty kitchen knife or an HIV filled syringe than anything.
I just picked up a P238 Equinox, and a Bodyguard .380 this morning, and put a couple hundred rounds through each. The P238 is going to be my EDC pistol. I work as a loss prevention manager in a multi-floor, high end, retail store, in a busy mall. We apprehend some real dirt bags. Catch is, i'm in MA, and for the sake of professionalism, and the threat of some hippie calling the cops and possibly losing my unrestricted LTC-A that is difficult to get in the first place, nobody I deal with on a day to day basis at work, be it customer, belligerent drug addict shoplifter, or co-worker, can notice I have the pistol. I'm 5'7", 185lbs, about 7-8% body fat, and do rx'd crossfit workouts religiously. I wear somewhat fitted clothes because I'm single and work hard to be in the shape I'm in. This brings me to the need for a tiny pistol that still has some nut. Only thing that fits that bill is a .380. I have, or have had, a lot of the other pistols mentioned here. This includes the m&p 40c, lc9, lcp, 1911's, j frames, compact glocks, etc. I usually carry the M&P 40c when I'm out on my days off, or hiking, etc, but this little p238 just plain disappears IWB and it's still an accurate, well made, pistol with very good sights, that I can shoot well at short to medium range. The lcp is cheaper, was all the rage when it came out, and it's fine for what it is, but let's face it, the sights blow, the trigger is usually poor at best, and it just feels cheap. There are better things out there now in the sub compact .380 class. I will say the bodyguard is definitely a step above the lcp. It is much easier to shoot accurately than an lcp, the built in laser works great, and is nice for those that like lasers, and it at least has real sights. I don't like it as much as the P238 though so I'm probably gonna transfer it to my father because he has been talking about getting a small pocket gun and he's on a fixed income. I know there are many on here that say its stupid to carry anything smaller than 9mm because the "experts" at the FBI say it isn't adequate, and they don't care if someone is offended by their gun, but not all of us can have that mentality or we'd be unemployed or possibly sitting in a court room. Bottom line is .380 will kill someone just as dead, and just as quick, as any other round in skilled hands, and it has done it quite well since John Browning designed it in 1908. It has been used by military, law enforcement, and everyone in between and we still use it today so i'm thinking there has to be some good reason for that. Sure it isn't gonna penetrate all the way through to the spine of a 225lb man and stop him while he's high on adrenaline from a fire fight, in 6 layers of wool military winter gear, but we don't usually face those types of issues in today's world. I'm more worried about the 135lb bony, cracked out, toothless, heroine addict that smells like a dumpster coming at me with a rusty kitchen knife or an HIV filled syringe than anything.
LoneStarTX
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Why compromise?
Although .380auto defense ammo has improved so has 9mm. Loaded with Speer Short Barrel 125gr GDHP, the 9mm is far superior and if you need to depend on your EDC there's no reason to be at disadvantage. Having carried many different weapons my current choice is Sig Sauer's P938 in a Remora holster.
Although .380auto defense ammo has improved so has 9mm. Loaded with Speer Short Barrel 125gr GDHP, the 9mm is far superior and if you need to depend on your EDC there's no reason to be at disadvantage. Having carried many different weapons my current choice is Sig Sauer's P938 in a Remora holster.
These caliber wars are ridiculous.
Will a 380 stop a determined attacker if you hit him in the wrong place? The answer is no.
Will a 9mm stop a determined attacker if you hit him in the wrong place? The answer is no.
Will a 45 stop a determined attacker if you hit him in the wrong place? The answer is no.
Will a 380 stop a determined attacker if you hit him in the right place?
The answer is yes.
Will a 9mm stop a determined attacker if you hit him in the right place?
The answer is yes.
Will a 45 stop a determined attacker if you hit him in the right place?
The answer is yes.
It's as simple as that assuming the round your using will penetrate to the right place.
Will a 380 stop a determined attacker if you hit him in the wrong place? The answer is no.
Will a 9mm stop a determined attacker if you hit him in the wrong place? The answer is no.
Will a 45 stop a determined attacker if you hit him in the wrong place? The answer is no.
Will a 380 stop a determined attacker if you hit him in the right place?
The answer is yes.
Will a 9mm stop a determined attacker if you hit him in the right place?
The answer is yes.
Will a 45 stop a determined attacker if you hit him in the right place?
The answer is yes.
It's as simple as that assuming the round your using will penetrate to the right place.
Mastrogiacomo
Member
I don't own the .380 for self defense. I have the Beretta Cheetah 85 in nickel for my collection. I love Berettas and this one was just too pretty not to get it. If I'm carrying, I'll take one of my other guns that were bought with self defense in mind.
I'd have to say it's a qualified 'yes' in all cases. Sometimes living creatures just don't go down like they 'should' when shot, regardless of what they are shot with. There are even documented cases of survival after being hit in the heart with a .357Magnum.
That said, the .380ACP isn't in the same general performance class as the other 2 cartridges mentioned in that it won't generally achieve 12" of penetration with an expanding round. That is the most commonly accepted minimum penetration figure for self-defense/law enforcement. The other two rounds will meet that requirement with good ammunition.
This may seem like splitting hairs, but it gets back to the "if you hit him in the right place" criteria. With the additional limitation on penetration imposed by expanding ammunition in the .380ACP, one could 'hit him in the right place' and potentially not have the bullet penetrate sufficiently to do the work it's intended to.
The .380ACP is right at the top of the 'pocket pistol performance class', while the other two calibers mentioned are members of the 'service pistol performance class'.
As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, I carry a .380ACP for self-defense some of the time, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to someone who wants a very small concealment gun. But when making such a recommendation, I do try to point out that it is a bit of a compromise in term of terminal performance. Of course, it does offer other advantages, one of them being concealability, another, as mentioned by Eb1, they can be a little more shootable than a heavier caliber.
Everything is a compromise, we just have to understand what we are giving up and what we are getting in return to be able to make an appropriate decision for our individual circumstances.
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