How much fire protection does a gun safe offer?

Status
Not open for further replies.
For a moment fire ratings for RSC verse safe aside, there are other things one can do to protect their RSC or Safe from a fire. We are not talking on a commercial scale either. Before I retired we did some major plant renovations in a relatively new plant area. This involved ripping out ceiling including the fire sprinklers so I dragged four brand new sprinklers home. They can be had for about $30 each depending on how fancy you want. Backflow check valves also are not that expensive. For under a few hundred bucks one could easily install 4 sprinkler heads with 1/2 inch NPT fittings using copper pipe above their gun safe area. Just leave an opening with a valve so the system can be bled maybe once a year. We are not talking a commercial NFPA approved fire prevention sprinkler system but a simple home brew system to help keep things in check till a fire department shows up. Here in my area of the Cleveland, Ohio suburbs our response for fire and EMS is about 5 to 6 min which is pretty good. Anyway, it is something to consider when looking at options to protect you guns and any other valuables you want secure.

Ron
 
When I was a teenager we had a house fire. No safe in those days. I took my dad's shotgun and my mom's pistol from the closet and threw them out the window into the shrubbery. They survived just fine, not even scratched.
 
kell490 said:
buy a cheaper safe and put the extra money towards the insurance
Click to expand...
This is a cogent strategy.
As long as one's collection is of in-production arms that are readily available.
For others, who have rare and/or collectible arms, they will want a different balance of protection and insurance.
Discontinued arms are tough to replace, even with really good insurance.
So, each one of us is different.
 
Is there any product that can be wrapped around an item to assist with fire protection? Functionally, like wrapping a long gun in asbestos, and placing inside a quality safe. I do know there are fire resistant manila style envelopes
 
DoubleMag said:
wrapped around an item to assist with fire protection
Click to expand...

If you're using an RSC or "safe", it isn't the fire so much as the temperatures that the interior of the safe can reach and the steam that comes from the baking dry wall insulation. Hundreds of degrees will roast guns that never have flames reach them.

A "quality" safe that isn't UL listed would need to be put in a protected space that won't reach much more than uncomfortable room temps in a house fire. If I recall, house fire temps can be 1,200 degrees for in excess of 45 minutes (someone check me on that) so you'd need a protected ceiling and walls for storage of your safe.
 
CapnMac said:
This is a cogent strategy.
As long as one's collection is of in-production arms that are readily available.
For others, who have rare and/or collectible arms, they will want a different balance of protection and insurance.
Discontinued arms are tough to replace, even with really good insurance.
So, each one of us is different.
Click to expand...

At least you would get money instead of nothing? The only real safe that has any kind of theft & fire rating TL-30 cost $7000-10000. Any RSC safe is not really that good can be cut open with a 7" cut off wheel like butter.
 
kell490 said:
At least you would get money instead of nothing?
Click to expand...
I am only suggesting it's one more point for consideration.
I used to worry a lot more about fire protection when my safe have middling rare items like 1903A1 and an all IBM Carbine along with the '43 marked & made 03A3 with a 4 groove barrel with not measurable M or T erosion. That latter item would be hard to replace without some serious cash, more cash than might be affordable in a simple replacement policy.

Back when I owned a house, I develvoped some plans to tuck the RSC into a 6" block enclosure as a more efficient use of dollars.

But, that was me. 2008 put paid to my plans, my house, and rather a lot of my collection. The considerations remain, though.
 
The only thing about the NRA insurance is I can't find the actual policy anywhere online need to dig into the fine print I once talk to them about some Class 3 machine guns I own and they called them rare firearms which they recommended some other insurance that was for collectible firearms stipulated you could not fire the gun. I don't really classify these machine gun as rare (1919 & sendra Ar-15 clone). I need to talk to them again. For 10k you can purchase lot of insurance I can keep my RSC safe.

I found the policy looks like they have no exclusion on a type of firearm not sure who I spoke to before maybe it was different insurance
https://mynrainsurance.com/getmedia...8e/section-3-armscare-plus-firearms-insurance
 
Last edited:
Waveski said:
Only a well designed underground bunker would save your guns in the firestorm
Click to expand...

Not discounting they exist, the difficulty of a firestorm is that it consumes most of the nearby oxygen. Don't plan to sit out the fire in that safe or safe room. Pics of the CA fires show temps above those necessary to melt aluminum, which is a sustained temperature of over 1250 F. If the bunker walls absorb that they will also continue to radiate it into the "safe" long after the fire is out. Everything inside will be well baked.

So much for Circassian walnut or a polymer stock. And at some point the lowest flash point material will cook off, initiating a fire inside the room, potentially after the fire is out externally. Now, what kind of stuff could do that? Aside from the obvious gunpowder danger, lubricating oils, slings, etc. Most woven fabrics, paper, etc., don't suffer heat soak well. I don't see it being a good thing for an expensive scope, either.

There is no fire proof safe. Read the UL listing - it's a limited application in terms of time, not an absolute guarantee. Much like the resistance rating safes have against intrusion, it's time duration. Beat on the safe long enough, you get in. Burn the safe long enough, it heats up internally and combusts spontaneously.

There's no amount of wishful thinking that will get around it. You might consider a fire resistant safe as part of your plan, but fire prevention is the only real course of action you can successfully implement. Failure to prevent the fire in the first place is where the majority of your loss will be - what guns got burned are really minor.

No, you can't shelter it out in your safe room. Don't even. A firestorm isn't biblical, its something that does happen here, now.
 
Tirod said:
There is no fire proof safe. Read the UL listing - it's a limited application in terms of time, not an absolute guarantee. Much like the resistance rating safes have against intrusion, it's time duration. Beat on the safe long enough, you get in. Burn the safe long enough, it heats up internally and combusts spontaneously.

There's no amount of wishful thinking that will get around it. You might consider a fire resistant safe as part of your plan, but fire prevention is the only real course of action you can successfully implement. Failure to prevent the fire in the first place is where the majority of your loss will be - what guns got burned are really minor.
Click to expand...

Can't argue with that. Like having a water "resistant" watch verse a water "proof" watch. Fire proof like water proof just means buying a little more time or depth. :) When in the path of a firestorm you are pretty much screwed. I believe we all focus our protection level on the environment in which we are. Here in the Cleveland, Ohio suburbs I am not likely to be subject to a forest fire and am afforded very good fire and EMT response times so while fire is a threat it is not something I overly worry about. Finally, we can only do so much and after that it simple is Que Sera, Sera (whatever will be will be). Anyway, we taylor our needs based on individual location and general environment, then sleep at night.

Ron
 
I did say "well designed" , and "underground". Furthermore , I never suggested or implied that human beings could ride out a firestorm in said hypothetical bunker. Never said "safe room".

That said , I seems to me that this topic has run it's course ; I shall move on.
 
Good info Captcurt. Yes when there isnt even able to be a response by fire dept to get to the house any safe will probably fail. Here in Florida they are actually building “hurricane” rooms for safe rooms that are also supposed to be fireproof for anything inside
 
RAEIndustries said:
Good info Captcurt. Yes when there isnt even able to be a response by fire dept to get to the house any safe will probably fail. Here in Florida they are actually building “hurricane” rooms for safe rooms that are also supposed to be fireproof for anything inside
Click to expand...
If I lived in Florida (and that is a big if) I would have had a hurricane room decades ago, I saw the movie Key Largo with Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall. I would also have a few generators. Not to be a "preppie" but not an idiot either. :) You choose your overall security based on where you are. Forrest fires and hurricanes miss the greater Cleveland, Ohio suburbs and my greatest threat of a natural disaster is a tornado and by the time flood water reaches me the party is over. :)

Ron
 
Reloadron said:
For a moment fire ratings for RSC verse safe aside, there are other things one can do to protect their RSC or Safe from a fire. We are not talking on a commercial scale either. Before I retired we did some major plant renovations in a relatively new plant area. This involved ripping out ceiling including the fire sprinklers so I dragged four brand new sprinklers home. They can be had for about $30 each depending on how fancy you want. Backflow check valves also are not that expensive. For under a few hundred bucks one could easily install 4 sprinkler heads with 1/2 inch NPT fittings using copper pipe above their gun safe area. Just leave an opening with a valve so the system can be bled maybe once a year. We are not talking a commercial NFPA approved fire prevention sprinkler system but a simple home brew system to help keep things in check till a fire department shows up. Here in my area of the Cleveland, Ohio suburbs our response for fire and EMS is about 5 to 6 min which is pretty good. Anyway, it is something to consider when looking at options to protect you guns and any other valuables you want secure.

Ron
Click to expand...

Ron,

That sounds like a plan for residential areas, but probably won't help in wild land fire areas. The problem in a lot of wild areas is related both to water availability, and pumping ability. In the mountains near us the wells often don't produce a lot of water. For example, we looked at a house earlier this summer where the owners were bragging about the 4GPM production of the well (which is about 4 to 8 times the typical well in that area). So, you don't have a ton of water to work with from the outset. More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that electricity is often cut off pretty quickly by an approaching forest/wild fire, and without electricity you don't have a way for your well to pump water... unless you have a generator running, but no one will be around to feed a generator during an evacuation.

Anyway, good to see some Cleveland folks around here! I grew up in North Olmsted myself.
 
Tirod said:
Not discounting they exist, the difficulty of a firestorm is that it consumes most of the nearby oxygen. Don't plan to sit out the fire in that safe or safe room. Pics of the CA fires show temps above those necessary to melt aluminum, which is a sustained temperature of over 1250 F. If the bunker walls absorb that they will also continue to radiate it into the "safe" long after the fire is out. Everything inside will be well baked.

So much for Circassian walnut or a polymer stock. And at some point the lowest flash point material will cook off, initiating a fire inside the room, potentially after the fire is out externally. Now, what kind of stuff could do that? Aside from the obvious gunpowder danger, lubricating oils, slings, etc. Most woven fabrics, paper, etc., don't suffer heat soak well. I don't see it being a good thing for an expensive scope, either.

There is no fire proof safe. Read the UL listing - it's a limited application in terms of time, not an absolute guarantee. Much like the resistance rating safes have against intrusion, it's time duration. Beat on the safe long enough, you get in. Burn the safe long enough, it heats up internally and combusts spontaneously.

There's no amount of wishful thinking that will get around it. You might consider a fire resistant safe as part of your plan, but fire prevention is the only real course of action you can successfully implement. Failure to prevent the fire in the first place is where the majority of your loss will be - what guns got burned are really minor.

No, you can't shelter it out in your safe room. Don't even. A firestorm isn't biblical, its something that does happen here, now.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that an underground shelter wouldn't be viable for a fire survival situation (even in a firestorm situation). I seem to recall that a few manufacturers have been installing government approved fire shelters in the Australian outback for some time now... saw mention of it on a documentary not too long ago.

I'm no engineer, and I'd never bet my life on something like that, but it seems plausible. Earth is a fairly good insulator, and the heat from a fire tends to go up, not down. I imagine that a shelter with 4 feet of earth on top of it would probably do pretty darn good in a firestorm, assuming the access to it was underground and insulated by earth as well (like a tunnel access). This is an issue I've considered a number of times, not so much for zombie apocalypse fantasies, but for something as realistic as fire protection. Wild fires around here have been intense at times, and some people have died when their escape routes have been blocked.

The thing about firestorms is that they burn intensely, but also quickly. They use up the fuel much faster than a slow moving fire.

We're currently in the burbs, but looking to get back to the hills where this kind of stuff matters. My wife grew up in those hills, and lived through no less than 7 mandatory fire evacuations (fortunately none of the fires took her home).
 
coloradokevin said:
So, you don't have a ton of water to work with
Click to expand...
This is a valid point.
Industrial sprinkler heads put out around 168-180 gpm; residential heads (which are expected to only be 8 or 10 feet off the floor) are in the 112-121 gpm range (don't quote me on those numbers, it's been 3 years since I did the NFPA CEC course).

The guiding principal in fire sprinkler design is not extinguishing--if that happens, well and good--it's to help protect things until the fire department shows up. So, in a rural situation, where the VFD might be thirty minutes' away, 115 gpm for 30 minutes is 3450 gallons. Which is close to a 500 cubic foot storage tank, not a small thing. Nor light, about 3100 pounds of just water.

No simple answers.
 
CapnMac said:
This is a valid point.
Industrial sprinkler heads put out around 168-180 gpm; residential heads (which are expected to only be 8 or 10 feet off the floor) are in the 112-121 gpm range (don't quote me on those numbers, it's been 3 years since I did the NFPA CEC course).

The guiding principal in fire sprinkler design is not extinguishing--if that happens, well and good--it's to help protect things until the fire department shows up. So, in a rural situation, where the VFD might be thirty minutes' away, 115 gpm for 30 minutes is 3450 gallons. Which is close to a 500 cubic foot storage tank, not a small thing. Nor light, about 3100 pounds of just water.

No simple answers.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the flow rate information! I suppose this might work for some folks in areas where their rural property sits against a lake, if water can be pumped from the lake by the homeowner. But, in those cases I think the better strategy at that point is a whole house protection system... I've seen systems advertised that are designed for the homeowner to use in an emergency starting at least 1 hour before the fire arrives. The strategy is to saturate the home, and keep it wet as the fire goes by. I have my doubts about how those fire suppression systems would fare against a firestorm, but they might save the home from the more typical sources of ignition (ex: asphalt shingles catching fire, soffits burning from dried debris in gutters catching it on fire, or nearby foliage igniting the home). I don't have any specs on these systems since they aren't practical out here, but I imagine they use a TON of water per hour, and require special pumping. Again, it might work for some properties, but it isn't going to be a viable strategy for 98% of mountain properties in places like Colorado.

If we make it back to the mountains the strategy for gun protection will be as follows:

1) Invest in the best fire rated safe that is practical for us.
2) Place the safe in the lowest level of the home (basements are common around here).
3) Try to get the guns out with us if there is enough time during an evacuation order.
4) Call the insurance company if everything else fails.

Of all the things I need to save, most of the guns aren't of the highest importance (it's a bit weird to say this, since I really like my guns, but most are replaceable). Two or three firearms would be grabbed for their heirloom/sentimental value, and the rest could be replaced if push came to shove. In a wildfire situation it generally seems more important to get family heirlooms, photographs, and important documents out of the home.

When my wife was living in Conifer, Colorado during the year of the Hayman Fire (look that one up) they kept all of their important documents and photographs in a tote in their horse trailer, and kept the trailer hooked to their truck. The idea was simple: in an emergency evacuation they were going to grab the two horses and start driving (with the essentials already loaded in the trailer). When they got the evacuation order they had just ten minutes to leave. Their house survived; many didn't.
 
coloradokevin said:
Ron,

That sounds like a plan for residential areas, but probably won't help in wild land fire areas. The problem in a lot of wild areas is related both to water availability, and pumping ability. In the mountains near us the wells often don't produce a lot of water. For example, we looked at a house earlier this summer where the owners were bragging about the 4GPM production of the well (which is about 4 to 8 times the typical well in that area). So, you don't have a ton of water to work with from the outset. More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that electricity is often cut off pretty quickly by an approaching forest/wild fire, and without electricity you don't have a way for your well to pump water... unless you have a generator running, but no one will be around to feed a generator during an evacuation.

Anyway, good to see some Cleveland folks around here! I grew up in North Olmsted myself.
Click to expand...
Absolutely agree Kevin. People do what the need to do based on their own environment. That also extends well beyond protection for guns. :) North Olmstead is and always was one of the nicer communities around here. :)

Ron
 
Gun safes aren't actually safes. If they were, they would weigh so much that no one could move one. I've always heard that the fire ratings are pretty much a joke. It has everything to do with how the fire behaves, what shape the room is, what kind of fuel is available, etc. I've never seen any evidence that one safe is better than any other in terms of fire protection. They will keep your guns from getting scorched in a minor fire that's put out quickly, and they will stop or slow down most burglars, but they aren't a replacement for good insurance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

L
  • Locked
How important is fire protection in a gun safe?
2
Replies
36
Views
3K
2nd 41
2nd 41
D
  • Locked
How to protect your guns from fire?
Replies
2
Views
406
CU74
C
J
  • Locked
Gun Safe?
Replies
20
Views
2K
peyton
P
E
  • Locked
Smaller "Big" Gun safes
Replies
4
Views
690
Doc
D
T
  • Locked
Gun Safes: The difference between "Safes" and "RSC's"
2
Replies
44
Views
29K
Markbo
M
Back
Top