How much pressure is too much pressure when shouldering a long gun?

[brekneb]

I figure the section for rifles is as good a place as any to ask a question like this so......

As the subject line would suggest, I am uncertain as to what level of firmness is adequate to ensure you are correctly shouldering a long gun whether it be a rifle, shotgun, whatever?

My problem is that I think I am over-doing the amount of pressure/firmness I am using and am possibly even excessively digging the stock into my shoulder to the point where I think I am causing a worsening of the recoil? Is that even possible? Worsen recoil by shoving the stock into your shoulder TOO firmly?

Plus I think this would effect accuracy considering how much I am bearing down on my shoulder....

I'm just not sure how much force I should be using? I.e.; how much is too much how much is not enough....

If I had to make a guess as to how firmly I pull back on the stock, I would imagine it's roughly around 10 lbs or more of "pulling force".

If nothing else, I can at least tell you that there is a noticeable strain/shake in my arm which seems to be also affecting accuracy.

Any input?

 

[Cosmoline]

It's supposed to be firm but comfortable, at least that's what I've always heard. The only folks who seem to really wedge themselves into the rifle butt are shooting in competition and have tight-fitting jackets on.

 

[skidooman603]

Well this is kind of a subjective question. For shooting off hand G. David Tubb says your pressure on the pistol grip should be like a firm hand shake. Not so much of a pull into your shoulder as pressure with your right hand (if you are right handed) Shooting HighPower with my AR 50% of the buttpad is actually not even in contact with my shoulder. Hope this helps...

 

[CoRoMo]

...there is a noticeable strain/shake in my arm which seems to be also affecting accuracy.

This is certainly not good. You need to find out if this is caused by the hold pressure. Lighten up and see if you are any more stable.

I guess I'd ask why, why are you using so much pull on the gun? Can you shoot it with less? Try and see.

 

[LaEscopeta]

I believe the purpose of pulling back into your shoulder is to be braced to handle recoil, both taking the blow and preventing any muzzle rise that may occur before the round is out of the barrel. If you think you are pulling too hard and actually INCREASING felt recoil try easing up a bit and see if the recoil you are feeling increases or decreases.

I can at least tell you that there is a noticeable strain/shake in my arm which seems to be also affecting accuracy.

If you watch the low power (no recoil) target shooters in competition they don’t pull back at all. Often their support hand is open (not holding on to the forend.) I believe as soon as you start pulling back you will get strain/shake that will make it harder to aim.

On one of those “Mail Call” shows (about the development of shotguns) the old gunny sergeant was firing 12 gages with his support hand not only open but turned around, so his thumb and for finger were back towards his face. He was trying real hard to hit the targets (which he did) but I don’t know how he kept the guns from flipping back over his head.

 

[joshk-k]

Your muscles should be relaxed (shoulders, back, arms, etc.). If you take a moment to notice and can feel your muscles tensed up, then you're probably pulling in too hard. Every now and again, if I'm shooting noticeably poorly, then I pay attention to that and work on just loosening up a bit.

 

[brekneb]

First, I think I should follow up by saying that the reason I probably am bracing FAR too much is because I'm anticipating heavy recoil. This is probably born out of fear because I first got into shooting by using a 12 gauge!

I use this death grip on any gun I shoot. Even .30 caliber rifles. Specifically rifles like some of my friend's guns like an SKS, M14 clone, FAL, a 30-30 lever gun etc.

Then, even with AR15's I bear down a little bit, but not as much as with the .30 caliber guns. Let alone shotguns. Crap, I REALLY use a vice grip on a shotgun.

I guess I'd ask why, why are you using so much pull on the gun? Can you shoot it with less? Try and see.

Why I am pulling on it so much is that I'm afraid that if I lighten up at all, the stock won't be firmly/adequately planted into my shoulder. I think I am worried that if I let up at all it's going to slap me. I've always heard use firm pressure but I think I'm realizing now that I'm over doing it to say the least.

I believe the purpose of pulling back into your shoulder is to be braced to handle recoil, both taking the blow and preventing any muzzle rise that may occur before the round is out of the barrel.

Your muscles should be relaxed (shoulders, back, arms, etc.).

It sounds like by these last two comments that I should basically just be resting the gun in my hands, without really pressing or gripping the stock very much at all? So the point of a firm hold is primarily to keep the gun jumping out of your hands/maintaining control on the gun? But, yes, also to keep yourself from being slapped.....

So how lightly pressed into my shoulder can the stock be without fear of being slapped by the gun? Or is this something I'm just going to have find out my own?


Does anyone advise against the following?........

I am thinking the way to go about this problem of mine is to gradually lighten up the pressure I'm using to push the stock back into my shoulder.

Do this little by little then stop at the point where it starts to get uncomfortable?

 

[dmazur]

My experience has been that you want to pull firmly enough to remove any slack caused by your clothing. Slack = free recoil and that is what you are describing as "slap".

When shooting offhand or off sticks, I pull back with my support hand, leaving my R hand more relaxed, but that may not work for everyone.

When shooting off a bench, I "snuggle into" the stock, letting the rear bag resist forward motion.

If perceived recoil is still too much for you, I'd get a better recoil pad. The Decelerators and Limbsavers are much, much better than most factory pads.

If you're shooting something like a military rifle that doesn't lend itself well to a recoil pad, pad the "other end" of the problem (you) with something like a shoulder pad or a heavy jacket.

I don't like recoil, but I've learned to live with it over the years. No flinch, yet. On the other hand, I don't shoot anything larger than .30-06.

 

[Magic_Man]

I get it firm enough that it's comfy & not flying all over the place.

 

[skidooman603]

Yes if you are right handed you should not "grip" with the left. It is more of a cradle. As for the butt stock on your shoulder, as long as it stays put that is enough pressure. As I stated earlier I nice firm handshake on the pistol grip is how it has been described to me. Hope this helps..

 

[LaEscopeta]

I am thinking the way to go about this problem of mine is to gradually lighten up the pressure I'm using to push the stock back into my shoulder. Do this little by little then stop at the point where it starts to get uncomfortable?

Sounds like a good plan to me.

The only formal shooting instruction I ever had was at boy scout summer camp over 30 years ago, so take what I say with a grain of salt. This site:

http://troop509.org/riflembsup.htm#shootingposfundamental

...lists some of the things I remember being taught, like “The stock’s fore-end should lightly rest in your left hand. It may be necessary to grasp a large caliber rifle at the fore-end, but a .22 caliber rifle should only rest in your left hand.”

As I understand it marksmanship improves by trying to turn the support hand (front hand on the fore-end) into a bench rest. You try to hold up the rifle with bone not muscle, because tensing muscle will cause strain/shake. You want muscles relaxed as possible, with your elbow directly under your hand, and if possible your upper arm (the part between the elbow and shoulder) resting on your chest. Like this:

The upper-arm-on-the-chest thing is awkward at first, and a lot of people shoot well without doing this, but I notice more champion rifle shooters do it than not.

A good THR thread on correct rifle stance in general, that mentions the usefulness of a shooting sling for both improving a steady hold and limiting muzzle flip:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=329910

One last thing. You mentioned 12 gages, and when I starting shooting again about 4 years ago it was wing shot gunning. It developed this technique to help with recoil, although it is against what all the books say is correct form, and I haven’t seen anyone else do this. I lean forward a bit and lift the heel of my rear foot. I let the recoil rock me back so I’m flat footed again after the shot. I hold the shotgun firm enough so everything moves back in one unit. It is kind of like rolling with a punch and I notice a significant reduction in felt recoil, and I don’t think I get any muzzle lift that affect aim.

Good luck and hope some of this helps.

 

[brekneb]

Thanks again everybody. Appreciate your willingness to take the time to help me.


I think I'll try the idea I was thinking of since no one seems to feel it's inadvisable. That is, lighten the amount of pressure I use to hold the stock into my shoulder little by little until recoil starts to hurt. Then stop lightening the pressure and hold at the level of pressure necessary just before the point I notice recoil becoming uncomfortable.

Also, thanks for all the other pointers on what to do with the off hand/weak hand as well.

 

[moooose102]

i use one basic pressure, snug.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Accuracy: It doesn't matter HOW firm you hold it, as long as it's the SAME each shot.

Recoil: The firmer the better, as far as I am concerned. In addition to leaning in, and firm grasps with both hands.

 

[Fremmer]

Light but firm pressure. Pressing hard will harm accuracy (because your hands are pressing more than just trying to provide a stable platform), and reduce the ability of your body to rock with the recoil. That's a vicious cycle: you don't like recoil, so you're pressing too hard and making your body too stiff, so when you fire, you experience more recoil than you should, which makes you press even harder and react more to the recoil......

 

[rangerruck]

I will go from the point of field hunting; whether the shooting position, the firmness should be enough, that the front end of the rifle or muzzle, stops moving. No shake, no drift up and down, or left and right. Not necessarily a poundage, but 10lbs or rearward pressure would be close, it more depends on the person, and when he can stop the front end shakes...

 

[Art Eatman]

I figure about like a normal hug on a pretty lady. I'm not trying to squeeze the breath out of her.

Hey, good way to practice!

 

[W.E.G.]

As firm as you can get it without inducing tremor.

The amount of firmness that can be achieved by various shooters will vary considerably, depending on their muscle mass and muscle tone.