how muzzle breaks can be different on each caliber's accuracy

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Very interesting.

I recently changed out my flash hider for a muzzle brake. With my standard load, the POI moved 3" right and 2" up, and the group size opened up as well. However, I suspected the different weight would have an impact, so I also tested a couple other loads, with slightly lower and slightly higher charges. The group size shrunk with the higher charge, which tells me that the harmonics changed enough for me to have to rework my loads to adjust.

I think that no conclusion can be drawn from the results in the video as to which muzzle device is best for accuracy, at least not without more testing and load adjustments. The only conclusion is that a different muzzle brake will have an effect that will likely require working up new loads. If you find a velocity node (with low standard deviation) you might be able to then tune the rifle with different barrel weights to force an accuracy node to line up with a velocity node.
 
Hang anything off the end of your barrel and you likely see some change. I think custom fitted barrels and brakes are less likely to show a large change, but there will still likely be some.

The only gun I have a muzzle device on is my RAM in 7mm. It prints about 1/2" left at 100yds with the brake installed as opposed to bare muzzle.
With the linear comp installed it shoots a little high of the brake.
Accuracy with the brake on is better than with it off, but that could also just be the rifle being eaiser to shoot.
The linear comp is worst.
Ive not tried to adjust my loads for each configuration, as I'm happy enough with the accuracy of each.

My ARs have all shown more changes in poi. Tho birdcages seem to consistently cause less poi and accuracy changes than other muzzle devices.
 
I wonder what affect an adjustable muzzle brake would have. Is it just the weight or does the force of the gasses make a difference too like tuning a guitar string.
 
TheRealBen said:
I wonder what affect an adjustable muzzle brake would have. Is it just the weight or does the force of the gasses make a difference too like tuning a guitar string.
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That would be an interesting study to do.
Same weight, balance and proper fitment, but different porting patterns.
 
The funniest part of the pseudo science presented is the complete neglect for the significance of variance among groups. Shooting a Faxon barrel, which while a decent barrel, isn’t a high precision tube, in an AR, which isn’t a high precision system, and relying upon only one group per brake as the representative data, without even a systemic neutralizing method, like shooting round robin. Is a .6” group statistically better than a single .7” group for that rifle and load? How many oddly shaped groups did you count in the video? Let alone the entire series of videos in this “test.” One group in particular was rather large, placing 2 bullets in one hole, over an inch away from the other 3 impacts, which were also one hole... a handful of vertically strung groups (needs more powder for that harmonic) against a handful of horizontally strung groups (seating depth) and a few round groups... huge POI shifts, big discrepancies in group size, odd group shapes... velocity data anywhere?

What does a control demo look like with that rifle? Say 6 groups of 5 shots each, shot in the same manner as the test, without changing the muzzle brake? Is the load optimized or arbitrarily chosen?

I’m not seeing substantial science to draw many defensible conclusions in the test.
 
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Varminterror said:
The funniest part of the pseudo science presented is the complete neglect for the significance of variance among groups. Shooting a Faxon barrel, which while a decent barrel, isn’t a high precision tube, in an AR, which isn’t a high precision system, and relying upon only one group per brake as the representative data, without even a systemic neutralizing method, like shooting round robin. Is a .6” group statistically better than a single .7” group for that rifle and load? How many oddly shaped groups did you count in the video? Let alone the entire series of videos in this “test.” One group in particular was rather large, placing 2 bullets in one hole, over an inch away from the other 3 impacts, which were also one hole... a handful of vertically strung groups (needs more powder for that harmonic) against a handful of horizontally strung groups (seating depth) and a few round groups... huge POI shifts, big discrepancies in group size, odd group shapes... velocity data anywhere?

What does a control demo look like with that rifle? Say 6 groups of 5 shots each, shot in the same manner as the test, without changing the muzzle brake? Is the load optimized or arbitrarily chosen?

I’m not seeing substantial science to draw many defensible conclusions in the test.
Click to expand...

I think if we look at simply as " your gun will change how it shoots if you mess with it" it does have merit...sorta
Qualitative, rather then quantitative, if you will.
But I totally agree, no one should draw ANY conclusion from a "test" like this, beyond that.
 
@LoonWulf "sorta" is pretty generous. POI shift due to muzzle device changes are well documented, so the set of these experiments as presented are really supporting a known, but trivial hypothesis. Walking around blindfolded will increase your odds of tripping over obstacles - nobody needs to do an experiment to qualitatively "prove" that hypothesis.

But hey, we can all be famous on youtube, so good on the guy for doing some shooting.
 
I agree that no conclusion can be drawn as to which muzzle device is the best from an accuracy standpoint, all we can conclude is that it can be shown that changing the muzzle device could have a significant impact on accuracy. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I did change a muzzle device, it affected my POI and groups, I adjusted my scope and my load, and I am pretty much back where I started with accuracy. I would also say that if you don't handload your own ammo, it might be possible to tune the rifle to a given factory load by changing muzzle devices.

From a purely scientific standpoint, I agree there is much more that can be done to improve the test method. I will not fault the guy for trying something and sharing his results, it opened up a discussion which is a good thing. And everyone else is welcome to conduct their own test.
 
Who didn’t know, in 2018, that muzzle devices can affect POI and precision?

I can appreciate the fact not many folks are familiar with the principles behind optimal barrel time or positive compensation, but the empirical correlation of “change muzzle = change impact,” has been widely published for decades.

And I’ll reiterate - the video is claiming a difference between many of these groups, without any statistical validation such they are, indeed, different. When he’s shooting a 1.3” beside a 1.5” group, most likely that is not a statistically significant difference. Pseudoscience and “near science” aren’t science.
 
Varminterror said:
Who didn’t know, in 2018, that muzzle devices can affect POI and precision?

I can appreciate the fact not many folks are familiar with the principles behind optimal barrel time or positive compensation, but the empirical correlation of “change muzzle = change impact,” has been widely published for decades.

And I’ll reiterate - the video is claiming a difference between many of these groups, without any statistical validation such they are, indeed, different. When he’s shooting a 1.3” beside a 1.5” group, most likely that is not a statistically significant difference. Pseudoscience and “near science” aren’t science.
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So, do I hear you volunteering to do your own tests and share the results here? :)
 
On my custom heavy 308 I have noticed no changes to velocity or accuracy and do to the weight very little change in felt recoil but there was a point of impact change from no brake to brake installed and a small change in poi when suprresor mounted on the brake . I'm am not convinced though it's from the brake because it also could be from the process of timing and mounting the brake
 

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Varminterror said:
Who didn’t know, in 2018, that muzzle devices can affect POI and precision?
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I have encountered number people whose understanding of the concept isn't exactly stellar, or why I wouldn't thread a barrel for a brake even tho the guy brought his own Chinese ebay die, and pilot.

Again not arguing with you, it SHOULD common knowledge....but like I've said I've been surprised by a lot of what isn't.
 
LoonWulf said:
it SHOULD common knowledge....but like I've said I've been surprised by a lot of what isn't.
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Completely agree with this, but my point is really that one 3min video showing a shift in POI when swapping muzzle devices would convey the same quality and quantity of actual information to those under-experienced viewers. A 4 video series with custom machined ballasts, a dozen different brakes, and half of his barrel life wasn’t necessary, or even valuable. To the under-experienced, those videos look like scientific product comparisons, whereas the results depicted most likely aren’t statistically valid.

In other words, the dude went through a hell of a lot of wasted work to prove “change muzzle = change POI,” but didn’t prove anything else beyond that. If I burn that much ammo for an experiment, I’d be a lot more scientific about it, otherwise I wouldn’t waste my time, ammo, and barrel life.
 
Varminterror said:
Completely agree with this, but my point is really that one 3min video showing a shift in POI when swapping muzzle devices would convey the same quality and quantity of actual information to those under-experienced viewers. A 4 video series with custom machined ballasts, a dozen different brakes, and half of his barrel life wasn’t necessary, or even valuable. To the under-experienced, those videos look like scientific product comparisons, whereas the results depicted most likely aren’t statistically valid.

In other words, the dude went through a hell of a lot of wasted work to prove “change muzzle = change POI,” but didn’t prove anything else beyond that. If I burn that much ammo for an experiment, I’d be a lot more scientific about it, otherwise I wouldn’t waste my time, ammo, and barrel life.
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Ahhhh yeah, your right, I didn't think about it like that!
 
My brother's Ruger guide gun came with a thread protector,a break ,and a weighted thread protector . The weighted thread protector is supposed to maintain the same point of impact as the break. While the regular thread protector is supposed to change point of impact. We haven't tried to change them out yet to see if this is true yet.

So I wonder if the weight change has more of an impact due to changing barrel harmonics than just the change of gases does.
 
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