How NJ Infringes My RTKBA

[bushmaster1313]

Here, in decreasing order of importance to me, is how New Jersey infringes on my 2nd Amendment rights:

1) NJ will not issue me a concealed carry permit. NJ law allows for the issuance of a concealed carry permit upon a showing of need, but the NJ Courts have interpreted this to give unfettered discretion to local law enforcement to deny permits, which they will always do. Any appeal is futile until McDonald comes down our way. Moreover, if you try to get a permit you will be denied and when you then try to buy a handgun you will have to check off the box which askes "Have you ever been denied a permit to carry or denied a permit to purchase a gun" After you check this box the NJ police will not issue you a permit to buy a handgun until you get a Court order.

2) It effectively took me 1 year to buy my first handgun in NJ. You need to have a Firearms Purchasers Identification Card and a Permit to Purchase a Handgun. Local LE and the State Police, who run the fingerprint checks, routinely delay this for 6-12 months.

3) When I moved two blocks I needed to get a new Firearms Purchasers Identification card (which is needed to buy handgun ammo or long guns) and it took 6 months. I also had to check off a box as to why I needed a new card. One of the boxes was for people who had a sex change. I'm still a guy and I checked off the box for change of address.

4) To buy a handgun you must get a permit for each purchase. This would not be so bad (for me) except they delay the permit 6-12 months and you have to give the name of your employer and supervisor. They then contact them to ask how they feel about your proposed purchase of a handgun. And, for my last permit the detective "investigating" my application came to my house when I was not home and scared my daughter.

5) NJ law says I can have a short barreled shotgun if I get the approval of my local Chief LEO. This will never happen.

6) NJ law says I can have a machine gun if I get the approval of my local Chief LEO. This will never happen.

7) NJ law prohibits the possession of a semiauto shotgun with a magazine that holds more than 6 rounds.

8) NJ law prevents me from putting a bayonet lug, flash suppressor or a folding stock on my pistol-gripped Bushmaster. I do not care about the bayonet lug or flash suppressor except that it prevents me from buying certain guns at good prices. Not being able to have a folding stock is annoying.

9) Taking my pistol to the range from my home I am not sure if I am able to stop to take a leak at a gas station or buy a cup a coffee. When transporting a gun from home to the range you must take the most direct route.

 

[Zundfolge]

Is there any reason you just have to live in New Jersey?

 

[bushmaster1313]

Is there any reason you just have to live in New Jersey?

I am very concerned about safety and the stiff gun laws in New Jersey have eliminated all violent crime.

Can you imagine how unsafe it must be to live in places like Vermont (where anyone can walk around with a gun in their pocket) and Switzerland (where every home has a machine gun).

 

[kingpin008]

With all due respect, what are you doing to help change the laws that are currently restricting your rights?

 

[bushmaster1313]

With all due respect, what are you doing to help change the laws that are currently restricting your rights?

I take my kids and friends out shooting at every opportunity.
I vote Republican.
I do my best to keep my local gun shops in business.

 

[kingpin008]

That's great, but what about getting involved in some of the grassroots groups as well? It's important to keep up on local efforts to promote & preserve the RKBA, as well as keeping up to date on new attempts to pass anti-gun legislation.

 

[bushmaster1313]

That's great, but what about getting involved in some of the grassroots groups as well? It's important to keep up on local efforts to promote & preserve the RKBA, as well as keeping up to date on new attempts to pass anti-gun legislation.

The only efforts that seem to matter are getting the anti-gunners voted out of office.

If you have other suggestions please let us know.

 

[kingpin008]

Like I said, joining local RKBA groups does a lot of good. One thing that will help to get the fools out of office is raising public awareness about how ridiculous the laws in your state are.

Here in MD, there's a small grassroots group that has been fighting the anti-gunners for years, and making a lot of headway. Taking anti-gun friends out and teaching them is great, but participating in large public protests and letter-writing campaigns organized by these types of groups is better.

Failing that, become active on your own. I write to my elected officials any time a new bill comes up for vote, and let them know that by supporting our rights, they keep their jobs. I also write to the local papers, explaining why things like CCW laws and castle doctrine are good things. Every letter might not get through, but those that do end up reaching a wide audience.

 

[Zundfolge]

Here's a couple of places to start:
http://www.njcsd.org/
http://www.anjrpc.org/

Failing that there's always:
http://www.realtor.com/

 

[bushmaster1313]

IMHO writing letters to the anti-gunners in office is pointless.

We need to vote out the anti-gunners.

 

[razorback2003]

The cost of living and taxes in New Jersey are both horrible too. The politicians have not done you guys much favors. Tax you to death on your income, property, and even hassle you when buying a gun. I think i'd find somewhere else to live and work, unless I had to be there. Pennsylvania is supposed to be at least more gun friendly and close by. I have no idea what the tax and cost of living situation is like in say Philly suburbs. Isn't New Jersey the place where you can't even pump your own gas?

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Voting Republican to keep your gun rights in NJ...lol....you know our Republican Governor, Chris Christie, as well as previous Christine Whitman, both support ALL of NJ gun laws? Sorry to break it to you. But everyone in NJ Politics hates guns.

NJCSD is just a sham organization, all they do is cater to cop shop clientele and help police officers get their wives and buddies quick carry permits. They have done nothing to better anyone's RKBA here in NJ.

ANJRPC is a bunch of greedy...you know what's....that would rather make sure the clubs in NJ charge ~$600 a year than open clubs to the public, even a day a week or every other week, to introduce people to shooting. They're just interested in making sure the rich people have a place to shoot.

realtor.com....I'm workin on that one and hoping for something within a year or two

I can attest to how ridiculous the carrying permit process is in NJ. I had a job as an armored car guard, and for duty only permits, the state STILL pulled all the usual moves and made permits take 6-12 months to process. One guy I worked with waited 14 months. And when he received the permit, it was dated EXACTLY 90 days after the day of application. The judge fudged his permit. Same to me, I had one that took 6 months, and when I got it, was dated exactly 90 days. What's hilarious with Mr. 14 months, is that since it was gonna take another 6-12, and the permit is valid for only 2 years, as soon as he got it he was filling out a renewal. I just love NJ!

As to #9, yes, if you stop for gas you can be charged with violating gun transport laws as you are potentially violating transport laws. The law is very vaguely worded and allows only "reasonable deviation" and we all know how reasonable NJ law enforcement is. Run into the wrong Belleville cop at the gas station and you're $10k+ deep in legal fees to try and stay out of prison.

As to #4, yes, it is ridiculous. There was a case very recently, last year, where a guy from Cherry Hill was it? That applied for a permit, the employer said no, he appealed all the way to state court and they sided with the employer. In fact, the chief of police did not even have to testify at the court hearing about why he denied the guy his permit.

And yes, we're one of only two states (Oregon is the other) that you cannot pump your own gas, it is actually ILLEGAL and you can be fined if caught pumping your own gas. We also have the highest property tax and auto insurance in the US.

Don't hold your breath on McDonald. That case may incorporate the second amendment, but it also took almost ten years and millions of dollars worth of lawyers (they are working for free most of them, but that does not mean their time is not valuable) to get to the supreme court. If and when they rule in 2a's favor, the laws in these states need to be challenged in court one by one, and that could be another decade worth of legal battles.

 

[RDak]

Bushmaster, what you have to go through to buy a handgun is, for all intents and purposes, criminal IMHO.

Such draconian procedures and regulations are simply a gross infringement on your fundamental right to own a firearm. How the voters in NJ ever let that occur is beyond me.

Hopefully, McDonald will go our way and go a long way to abolish such restrictive laws.

I don't know what else to say except to offer my condolences. Hang in there and pray for McDonald to go our way in a meaningful way.

I believe McDonald will go a long way to end such ridiculous and evil governmental practices relative to firearms laws, etc.

As Dark Knight said, your only hope is for the SCOTUS to remedy this draconian situation. NJ politicians have been anti-gun for decades and it appears the majority of NJ voters are ok with that.

I just don't know what else to say except wait for McDonald. Very sad situation, very sad.

Dark Knight, it will cost millions of dollars for NJ to fight McDonald if they so choose. Maybe those people in authority will analyze the decision and conclude it is futile. Maybe not though. Look how DC chose to initially implement Heller.

I'm just mystified as to how some States have implemented such prohibitive and draconian firearms regulations/procedures. (Michigan is very gun friendly and what you guys are going through is science fiction to me.)

And yes Dark Knight political philosophy sometimes doesn't matter. In Michigan, Republican governor Engler vetoed the initial shall issue concealed carry laws until the year 2000 when he realized it was veto proof. (It was veto proof IIRC, because the voters overwhelmingly wanted shall issue laws on the books. I think he annually vetoed the shall issue bill starting in 1997.)

Thereafter, our current Democratic governor Granholm has concluded shall issue did not increase crime and might very well have been a factor in the State's diminishing violent crime rate (she reviewed other States' statistics also). The result of her honest review of the facts and stats is to pass every pro-gun bill that has gotten to her desk (e.g., the Castle Doctrine being the most important IMHO).

No, you can't always go by political parties.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

I should also point out something interesting about court challenges, I am no lawyer and have no idea how it works, so if someone more educated than I could please clarify that'd be great.

One thing to note is that McDonald vs. Chicago began with various legal teams deciding to challenge Chicago, they recruited participants for a civil suit across a wide demographic and chose McDonald as the lead plaintiff. They began it by having Mr. McDonald walking into the police station and attempt to apply for a permit to register a .22lr Revolver, be denied, and thus begins the court battle.

So if McDonald were to pass, wouldn't that mean that, to challenge these laws through the courts, someone in NJ would have to posses an "assault weapon", get caught with it, be arrested, lose in NJ court, and appeal to federal and possibly even supreme court afterwards, in hopes of them striking down the law, risking not only money but a potential 10 year prison sentence for the plaintiff?

Sounds like a hell of a Guinea Pig.....

And yes Dark Knight political philosophy sometimes doesn't matter. In Michigan, Republican governor Engler vetoed the initial shall issue concealed carry laws until the year 2000 when he realized it was veto proof. (It was veto proof IIRC, because the voters overwhelmingly wanted shall issue laws on the books.)

Thereafter, our current Democratic governor Granholm has concluded shall issue did not increase crime and might very well have been a factor in the State's diminishing violent crime rate. The result of her honest review of the facts and stats is to pass every pro-gun bill that has gotten to her desk (i.e., the Castle Doctrine being the most important IMHO).

Exactly! Another thing of note....California, with the worst gun laws, has a Republican governator. Vermont, which has gun laws almost identical to the original scope of the second amendment, has had plenty of Democrats in office in the last couple decades. Right now they have Republican Governor and senator is 1 Dem 1 Republican. The old notion that Republican = Guns and Democrat = Brady Campaign is silly.

 

[kingpin008]

IMHO writing letters to the anti-gunners in office is pointless.

We need to vote out the anti-gunners.

Ok, I'll grant you that. Luckily, writing letters to the anti-gunners in office isn't the only way to work on effecting a change.

Like I said, try to organize and participate in a public rally or protest, and write letters to the editors of your local papers opposing anti-gun bills.

There is MUCH you can do to help turn the tide. The fight is NEVER hopeless, even in New Jersey.

 

[armoredman]

Great Scott, what a mess you have to put up with!! Come out to AZ.

1) NJ will not issue me a concealed carry permit. NJ law allows for the issuance of a concealed carry permit upon a showing of need, but the NJ Courts have interpreted this to give unfettered discretion to local law enforcement to deny permits, which they will always do. Any appeal is futile until McDonald comes down our way. Moreover, if you try to get a permit you will be denied and when you then try to buy a handgun you will have to check off the box which askes "Have you ever been denied a permit to carry or denied a permit to purchase a gun" After you check this box the NJ police will not issue you a permit to buy a handgun until you get a Court order.

AZ shall issue state. No permit to purchase required. Open carry legal, no permit required. Watch for signs at businesses.

2) It effectively took me 1 year to buy my first handgun in NJ. You need to have a Firearms Purchasers Identification Card and a Permit to Purchase a Handgun. Local LE and the State Police, who run the fingerprint checks, routinely delay this for 6-12 months.

Holy garbage, AZ, none of that, walk in, provide correct ID, fill out 4473, pass15 minute background check phone call,(unless you have a Shall Issue CCW, then no phone call required), walk out with firearm and ammo. No FOID, no permit to purchase, none of that.

3) When I moved two blocks I needed to get a new Firearms Purchasers Identification card (which is needed to buy handgun ammo or long guns) and it took 6 months. I also had to check off a box as to why I needed a new card. One of the boxes was for people who had a sex change. I'm still a guy and I checked off the box for change of address.

AZ, again, none of that. If you move, and you have a Shall Issue CCW, you can change your address online. We could care less about sex changers.

4) To buy a handgun you must get a permit for each purchase. This would not be so bad (for me) except they delay the permit 6-12 months and you have to give the name of your employer and supervisor. They then contact them to ask how they feel about your proposed purchase of a handgun. And, for my last permit the detective "investigating" my application came to my house when I was not home and scared my daughter.

See answer to #2.

5) NJ law says I can have a short barreled shotgun if I get the approval of my local Chief LEO. This will never happen.

AZ is NFA friendly, AND you may carry your legal BFA item with your Shall Issue CCW permit.

6) NJ law says I can have a machine gun if I get the approval of my local Chief LEO. This will never happen.

See answer to #5.

7) NJ law prohibits the possession of a semiauto shotgun with a magazine that holds more than 6 rounds.

No ammo, magazine bans here. Hang as long of a magazine on as you want. When it's too heavy to hold, we will chuckle politely and get you a tripod.

8) NJ law prevents me from putting a bayonet lug, flash suppressor or a folding stock on my pistol-gripped Bushmaster. I do not care about the bayonet lug or flash suppressor except that it prevents me from buying certain guns at good prices. Not being able to have a folding stock is annoying.

No law on attachments, cosmetics, nada. Tacticool anything you want as long as it isn't in violation of Federal law, i.e., 922(r).

9) Taking my pistol to the range from my home I am not sure if I am able to stop to take a leak at a gas station or buy a cup a coffee. When transporting a gun from home to the range you must take the most direct route.

Stop for coffee open carry, cops might ask you what ammo you like, and is that a custom holster.

Amigo, we have LOTS of room, and no snowstorms. Public ranges all over, some actually free. Darn good chow, if you can put up with losing fresh seafood for good Mexican chow.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[DammitBoy]

I am very concerned about safety and the stiff gun laws in New Jersey have eliminated all violent crime.

Can you imagine how unsafe it must be to live in places like Vermont (where anyone can walk around with a gun in their pocket) and Switzerland (where every home has a machine gun).

You and New Jersey deserve each other.

 

[kingpin008]

Dammit - he's being sarcastic.

 

[Cromlech]

7) NJ law prohibits the possession of a semiauto shotgun with a magazine that holds more than 6 rounds.

Here in the UK, any Shotgun that holds more than 2 rounds (+1 in the chamber for pumps/semis) needs to be held on a Firearms licence rather than a Shotgun Certificate.

So strangely enough, though we need a licence for it, you can get a Saiga 12ga with high-capacity magazines here and you guys can't.

 

[mp510]

So strangely enough, though we need a licence for it, you can get a Saiga 12ga with high-capacity magazines here and you guys can't.

They have high capacity Saiga magazines here now. They run circles around the folks with tube fed shotguns in action-type competitions, where reload speed (effectively) determines the winner.

 

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

Just move out of NJ bushmaster. Its the only sure fire way to solve your prob. I for one will be moving to Tennessee, or Kentucky real soon here.

 

[Demitrios]

You see I can't understand why someone would just move out of their home state to "solve a problem". It's not a solution, it's the definition of running away from your problem. If we could just rally people together, to educate them on gun/crime statistics, and familiarize them with firearms, making them less "offensive".

And before anyone asks how I'm active in being pro-gun, I've educated new shooters, am an active voter and I've stood in front of Corzine before he signed his bill limiting one hand-gun purchase per month, to name a few things.

 

[kingpin008]

You see I can't understand why someone would just move out of their home state to "solve a problem". It's not a solution, it's the definition of running away from your problem. If we could just rally people together, to educate them on gun/crime statistics, and familiarize them with firearms, making them less "offensive".

A-FREAKIN'-MEN.

It's always amazed me how so many of us are so ready to spout all the spiffy catchphrases like MOLON LABE and FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS but the second someone describes the troubles they have in an anti-gun state they scream "MOVE OUTTA THERE!!".

The fight doesn't stop when you turn tail and run. The idiots who want to restrict your rights won't stop at the border and wave their fists at you as you retreat to safety. They will spread their anti-freedom and anti-rights poison just as they are trying to do now. The only difference is that the job will be easier for them, and you'll have nowhere else to run when it finally catches up to you.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Stay and fight! These laws were poorly written. There's loopholes galore. Why the hell should we give up our 2A freedoms in places like NJ/NYC? I think if most people understood 2A like we do, there'd be a groundswell of support to repeal these dumb laws.

So if McDonald were to pass, wouldn't that mean that, to challenge these laws through the courts, someone in NJ would have to posses an "assault weapon"...

Actually, I believe NJ has a provision for owning AWs, you just need a special license, which is never granted. So you'd have to apply for that license, get denied, then go to the supreme court.

NJ law is probably a lot easier to challenge than NYS law.

The cost of living and taxes in New Jersey are both horrible too

That's not entirely true. Unfortunately, we tend to demonize anti-gun places and generalize them as "all bad". There actually are places that are affordable to live in NJ and for that matter in NYC. You just have to look for them. Moving to PA isn't going to solve your problems for long. Bethlehem, PA and Allentown, PA are already being considered "suburbs of NYC".

 

[sv51macross]

This isn't quite on topic, but was inspired by armoredman's comparison of NJ to AZ. I did some research and number-crunching and found this: (stats are from 2005)

Total Pop (AZ/NJ): 5,939,292/8,717,925
Total Crime (AZ/NJ): 317,823/234,310
% Crime violent (AZ/NJ): 9.59/37.21
Total violent Crime (AZ/NJ): 30,479/87,187
Violent Crime/Capita: AZ: 1/195, NJ: 1/100

So, essentially, in 2005 New Jersey had twice as many violent crimes per capita as Arizona.

From http://www.prsearch.com/crime/arizona/
http://www.prsearch.com/crime/new_jersey/