How to deter a gunman intent on suicide?

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ha...

...RNB65, you think like I do...
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How do we prevent such a tragedy other than by a law similar to the one proposed?

Shoot him.

...you cannot prevent anyone from commiting suicide if they so choose...
...and how do you know you should?...
 
the very premise of this and dave beals other thread is that a law can prevent something bad from happening. this is a complete fallacy. laws rarely prevent anything, they are designed to deal with the aftermath of things that have happened. for example, it is illegal to drive under the influence, but the law does not prevent drinking in the first place, which would prevent driving under the influence. it merely punishes those who break the law by drinking and driving. the idea that all bad things can be prevented is irrational and such power is to dangerous to consign into the hands of politicians, bureaucrats, and those who want to keep us safe at all costs. preventetive laws only end up taking away freedom from the law abiding.
 
A number of years ago I knew a psychologist who worked with some real odd cases, and his approach was sort of a cross between Marine drill sergeant and tough love. Patients would come in and tell him they wanted to commit suicide. He'd ask if that's what they really wanted, or if they'd perhaps prefer to see about working through their problems. The answer was often that they really wanted to commit suicide.

If that was the answer, he'd open his desk drawer, pull out a wad of cash, and hand it to them.

"What's this for?"

"To go buy a gun so you can stop wasting both of our time."

After that, most of them decided they'd prefer to work on the problem. Nobody actually took the money and bought a gun, but they didn't get any "poor you" sympathy in that office. He told them that being depressed was a choice, and he meant it. However, I had a friend/co-worker (not treated by that psychologist) who was chronically depressed over an extended period. He was even institutionalized a couple of times as a danger to himself. Shortly after they sent him home from one of those stays, he drove his pickup truck onto a railroad track in the path of an Amtrak train ....

If they want to do it -- they'll do it and there's no way to stop them from trying.
 
How does personal responsibility or the threat of prosecution deter a person who intends to culminate his act by killing himself? How do we prevent such a tragedy other than by a law similar to the one proposed?

This may have been already said:

You can't. Bad things are going to happen in life. If you try to prevent everything and construct a sanitized world, you will drive yourself nuts in the process. Use common sense in life and watch your six.

People that think passing a new law for every possibility are misguided IMO. Laws are not very effective at preventing things. We have a lot of laws on the books already, more than can be counted, yet crime continues. Laws are good at putting up roadblocks for those that are already law-abiding. Not so good for those with bad intentions.

Toughen penalties for serious crimes and remove repeat offenders from circulation.

As for the lone nutjob with no track record? Well, there's not a lot you can do. If he can't get a gun, he can always get some gasoline and a match. The worst schoolhouse massacre in US history was not done with a firearm.
 
Jim March:

I'm in favor of an absolute ban on the publication of the names or photos of mass killers of any sort, regardless of weapon.

Yes, this means throttling the press on this one subject, to the point of threatening to jail them if they don't comply.

We have to deny them the "glory" they're seeking. Period. They're doing this because they KNOW their name, picture and "story" (and even percieved grievances) will make the national news.

I believe a 1st Amendment violation of this sort could survive a "strict scrutiny" level of oversight by the courts.

Absolutely right.

Dave Beale:

How do we prevent such a tragedy other than by a law similar to the one proposed?

A preliminary comment, Dave. You refer to a law you've advocated in another thread, ask that no one discuss it in this thread, and then assume its relevance. You're not playing fair, or clearly either. There's getting to be too much fog.

With respect to the specific question you want answered in this thread, you already know the answer you want: pass a law that prohibits your teenager from killing other people and then killing himself.

But since both murder and suicide are already illegal, I propose that there be a new law that requires a change in sequence for anyone who plans to kill other people and commit suicide.

My new law would require the would-be murderer/suicide to reverse the sequence: instead of killing other people before he kills himself, he must kill himself before killing other people.

It will be immediately obvious that this new law could help save the lives of many innocent people.

I don't know how to enforce such a law but I have absolute confidence in the ability of the law enforcement agencies that enforce the laws against murder and suicide to enforce this new law with equal dedication and results.

We need to think creatively about all the new laws we want. I am happy to help by contributing my own clarity of thought. By all means let's have lots of new laws prohibiting this and punishing that. Soon we should reach the point of prohibiting just about everything and punishing just about everyone, and then there will be peace upon the land and we will be perfect.

My second new law, by the way, would require a mandatory life sentence with no possibility of parole for anyone caught proposing a new law after that one. If Carolyn McCarthy is caught proposing a new law she should get two mandatory life sentences, to be served consecutively.
 
welcome and thank you for allowing me to contribute to a thread I didn't read.

How do we prevent such a tragedy other than by a law similar to the one proposed?

Easy, if we cut off his hands and feet then he cant operate a gun:evil:

In fact! lets go further! lets get rid of all sexual organs on both genders to prevent rape and prostitution!

do it for the children
 
Here in Iraq, we don't really get school shooters. We get suicide bombers.

I was taught that there is no negotiating with these guys. They have already decided that they are going to die. They have also decided to take as many people as they can with them. They have a date with Allah, and they will not miss it. This is their mindset. The only thing we can do is to make sure they are not late.

The same thing applies to mall and school shooters. They have made up their minds. There are no hostages and no surrenders. They are going to try to be famous. They are going to kill as many people as they can, and then end their own life to avoid capture. The best we can do is to make them get to phase two as quickly as possible.
 
How do we prevent such a tragedy other than by a law similar to the one proposed?

Here's an idea: Outlaw murder. Outlaw suicide.

Wait -- we already did that.

I got it: LET'S OUTLAW THE VIOLATION OF PRE-EXISTING LAWS AND MAKE IT DOUBLEPLUS ILLEGAL! YEAH! THAT'S IT! :banghead::banghead::banghead:
 
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Obviously you did not get the response you wanted on your original post, therefore, you try a different approach to say "See here is an acceptable reason to lock up guns". There never will be an acceptable reason to lock up guns and make someone else liable for another persons actions.

Unfortunately, if someone is intent on suicide, they will usually find a means to that end. Hopefully, with themselves as the only victim.

But again, we already have laws addressing these issues, so why make a criminal out of someone who did not commit the crime.

If you give (allow access to) an obviously drunk/insane individual the keys to your car and then they injured or killed someone, you will be held liable under existing laws.

If said individual took your keys, without your permission (theft) and then did something criminal, why should you be liable for their obvious criminal action.

Again your "REASONABLE" law is UNREASONABLE.
 
the very premise of this and dave beals other thread is that a law can prevent something bad from happening. this is a complete fallacy.

If laws have no deterrent affect, then their only purpose is vengeance. Shall we repeal all of them?

Quote:
How do we prevent such a tragedy other than by a law similar to the one proposed?

Shoot him.

Gunning down the bad guy after he's already killed a few innocents isn't good enough.

Consider a case where a teenager takes a gallon of gas from his parents, commits mass murder:

I'm not claiming that the proposed law would prevent all mass murders. Since we can't prevent all of them, should we not try?

I got it: LET'S OUTLAW THE VIOLATION OF PRE-EXISTING LAWS AND MAKE IT DOUBLEPLUS ILLEGAL! YEAH! THAT'S IT!

Our society has a problem. I've proposed a solution. You haven't.
 
If laws have no deterrent affect, then their only purpose is vengeance. Shall we repeal all of them?

Laws have plenty of deterrent effect. They - along with a decent sense of right and wrong - deter me from doing things I know are illegal. Your question was whether they'll deter crazy mass shooters. The answer is, "probably not." But then, we have no idea how many crazy mass shooters have failed to acquire a gun.

Gunning down the bad guy after he's already killed a few innocents isn't good enough.

It's a damn sight better than what we've got going now, where the crazy killer gets to gun himself down. Frankly, since the world can't be secured (not "shouldn't," not "it would infringe on my rights," but flat-out can't), then in my opinion, gunning the guy down before he completes his actions is gonna have to be good enough.

I'm not claiming that the proposed law would prevent all mass murders. Since we can't prevent all of them, should we not try?

Again, we don't know how many mass murders have been prevented by existing laws. I would bet it's a nonzero number.

Our society has a problem. I've proposed a solution. You haven't.

I don't think mass murder is the gravest problem facing our society today; I wouldn't even put it in the top ten. As such, I think this is a solution in search of a problem.
 
Gunning down the bad guy after he's already killed a few innocents isn't good enough.

Is it "good enough" for you, Herr Chancellor, if "gunning down the bad guy after he's already killed a few innocents" prevents the bad guy from killing a few dozen more?

Does it matter to you that the mandatory "lock up the gun" laws that you seem to be proposing could actually delay or even defeat a good guy from stopping that kind of carnage?
 
Our society has a problem. I've proposed a solution. You haven't.

You're right, our society does have a problem. One of the biggest is people coming up with bad solutions to made-up problems.

Here's an idea, instead of regulating guns and punishing gun owners which will only affect his MODE of carrying out his crime, we go after his aim.

The press is not allowed to publish the name of any such mass murderer and any information he has left behind is to be burned.

If the press give him any sort of coverage, they will be held criminally responsible for his actions as they are now encouraging other similar maniacs to try to gain the same "fame." (Both the Mall shooter and the VT shooter specifically said that this was their goal).

Why aren't you suggesting to restrict the press? I think it would be a far more useful means of discouraging these murders. Rather than trying to stop them from murdering with guns when they can do it with bombs or fire, let's just frustrate their goals.

Let's regulate the press!
 
How does personal responsibility or the threat of prosecution deter a person who intends to culminate his act by killing himself?

That's the million dollar question. We find an effective way to stop these horrific acts without descending into mental or social "re-programming" or "thought police" and much of the current violence in the world goes away.

A person who commits this kind of act is severely disturbed; they feel overwhelming pain and they are determined to share it before ending it. If all they wanted to do was end their pain, they could eat a bullet anyday and save the other 14. Or, they're simply sadistic; they get pleasure out of seeing others suffer, and want to "go out with a bang", ending their lives on a high note.

In either case, such people are clearly not of sound mind. A person who kills simply to kill is insane, no matter the legal definition of being able to tell right from wrong.

I've said this, maybe in other forums, but there quite simply is no solution for a person with no prior documented criminal or mental history who walks into a gun store, buys a gun, a few mags and a couple hundred bullets, and 15 minutes later is surrounded by dead and wounded with a bullet in his head. Someone determined to do this is going to find a way, and the only means of attacking the problem are at the source and not conducive to a free society (ideas such as "pre-crime", "thought police", eugenics/genetic cleansing, etc.).

If they don't use a gun, it'll be a knife, an explosive (ring any bells? Suicide bombers in the Middle East were thought up largely because civilians started shooting back at gunmen), a chemical or biological agent (quite a few cases of HIV-positive rapists over the past years), or even radiological (buy a couple dozen smoke detectors posing as a contractor, tear em apart, add motor oil and fertilizer and you have yourself a dirty bomb). A gun is preferred because even for a criminal it is easy to get, requires few if any brains to use (simple "point and click" interface), and deals death both efficiently and selectively; you get to watch your target die up close and personal, and yet it is more impersonally used than a knife or other close-in weapon.

An armed populace is only part of the solution. Like I said, a gun becomes a far less preferable weapon when others start shooting back. Arm citizens and criminals will use bombs. It really is not difficult at all to make one; grind up mothballs, mix styrofoam and gasoline, motor oil and ammonium nitrate fertilizer, soap-making a la Fight Club for glycerin (the movie doesn't have all the steps, but instructions on the web for soap or biodiesel do and the final transformation of glycerin to nitroglycerin is also easily found), or even rust and aluminium filings. You can't regulate most of those products; they're too useful to society or can be made from scratch without buying out-of-the-ordinary quantities of anything.

I think if you were going to stop these acts, the solution would have to be social. People need to recognize warning signs and not say "it isn't my problem", and notify proper authorities. Then you need intelligent people making the call whether a tip is worth following; a lot of school shootings were known about beforehand, and the person was reported to authorities who dismissed the suspicions. Of course hindsight is always 20/20; after every one of these acts one of the first questions is "how could this have been planned right under the noses of parents/teachers/police?", and when enough investigation is done it's suddenly obvious he was going off the deep end, but it's so obvious because the police and authorities focused attention on one guy and collected hundreds of disparate pieces of information that any one person wouldn't have had beforehand.

In summary, if you're serious about stopping people, you have to catch them BEFORE they commit their heinous acts. Reaction simply cannot work long-term, because the weapons will change to make that difficult or impossible. How you're going to do that without turning this country into something out of '1984', I have no clue.

Why aren't you suggesting to restrict the press? I think it would be a far more useful means of discouraging these murders. Rather than trying to stop them from murdering with guns when they can do it with bombs or fire, let's just frustrate their goals.

Brilliant; you're shredding the First Amendment to protect the Second. The First Amendment is the reason you have the Second in the first place; if you can't protect your right to free speech (and other rights), you will inevitably lose it. So too, if you are unwilling to protect it, or even worse, freely willing to give it up. If they can regulate the press, they can regulate editorials, then blogs, then what you write in a letter or e-mail, then what you say to your friends and family.

Infringement of the First OR Second Amendments are not going to stop this kind of thing. Even if a gunman somehow knew he'd never make national headlines, he'd still want to take as many as he could with him; the guys he left alive will certainly never forget him, and for a guy who feels invisible and worthless that's enough of a mark.
 
If laws have no deterrent affect, then their only purpose is vengeance. Shall we repeal all of them?
I'm cool with vengeance. We shouldn't repeal them because then there's not deterrence OR vengeance.

These nitwits are like the Japanese on Saipan. We didn't pass a law against Banzai charges. We killed the people who performed them.

Knowing there's a good chance of getting shot before they can have their "fun" will deter a lot of them. Those who aren't deterred will just get shot.

Works for me.
 
DaveBeal said:
If laws have no deterrent affect, then their only purpose is vengeance. Shall we repeal all of them?
We could probably repeal between 75 and 90 percent of the laws on the books today and you would never notice any difference in the conduct of your daily life. There are laws still on the books in some jurisdictions that are over a hundred years old and have probably not been enforced for 50 or more years. A few years ago I was involved in a (successful) effort to repeal a law that had been on the books in my state for over 80 years before anyone was EVER cited for violating it. And when someone was finally arrested for it, the case was thrown out of court because the police who made the arrest didn't read the law correctly, and the judge acknowledged that there had been no violation.

We'd all be MUCH better off with a whole lot fewer laws. Then we -- and the police -- could focus on the laws that actually mean something.
 
Brilliant; you're shredding the First Amendment to protect the Second. The First Amendment is the reason you have the Second in the first place; if you can't protect your right to free speech (and other rights), you will inevitably lose it. So too, if you are unwilling to protect it, or even worse, freely willing to give it up. If they can regulate the press, they can regulate editorials, then blogs, then what you write in a letter or e-mail, then what you say to your friends and family.

Infringement of the First OR Second Amendments are not going to stop this kind of thing. Even if a gunman somehow knew he'd never make national headlines, he'd still want to take as many as he could with him; the guys he left alive will certainly never forget him, and for a guy who feels invisible and worthless that's enough of a mark.

That was my point. If we are going to restrict one right, why don't we restrict the others, too.

Sorry, I guess I need to put <sarcasm> into my posts more often so that those without the detectors can better recognize it.

Also, Liko- as you notice that there is a danger in allowing any regulation of freedom of the press, why did you not also note the danger to the right to keep and bear arms in your desire to punish gun owners if their weapon is misused?

A right is a right, it doesn't matter if it is speech or arms.
 
I'm not claiming that the proposed law would prevent all mass murders. Since we can't prevent all of them, should we not try?

The flaw in your logic is that your proposed law can't prevent any mass murders, it would just cause mass murderers to shift to other, readily available and arguably more effective means. No mass shooting in this country has approached the 85 dead in the Happy Land Social Club fire. IIRC, that was a disgruntled boyfriend who put a gallon can of gas at the only entrance to the upstairs club and lit it. No one has proposed criminal sanctions for "unsecured gasoline" as result.

And, no, we should not "try" to prevent mass killings by making the right to keep and bear the most effective means of halting these attacks more difficult to exercise. I believe that's where the "shall not be infringed" part comes in.
 
How does personal responsibility or the threat of prosecution deter a person who intends to culminate his act by killing himself?
It doesn't. Nor does the fact that an act is illegal tend to deter criminals at all.

How do we prevent such a tragedy other than by a law similar to the one proposed?
Laws prohibiting certain behaviors of law abiding citizens generally have not been shown to have any real effect on the behavior of criminals. If the gun laws we already have are any indication, such laws tend to actually embolden criminals.

Virtually all these kind of killers had all kinds of previous encounters with the criminal justice system. Perhaps the criminal justice system should be tried for its failure.

A fair number were on mind altering drugs that did not prevent their evil acts. Should the doctors prescribing these drugs be locked up because they didn't work?

Several may have had AIDs dementia, but even admitting that malady exists is so unPC that it cannot even be talked about. How about we lock up those who won't admit AIDs dementia even exists because it does not suit their political agenda.
 
We have never been able to legislate morality or common sense and we need to quit trying. My personal feeling is we need to grant their wish - and I will if one of these "people" threaten me or mine...
 
Jdude:

Here in Iraq, we don't really get school shooters. We get suicide bombers.

I was taught that there is no negotiating with these guys. They have already decided that they are going to die. They have also decided to take as many people as they can with them. They have a date with Allah, and they will not miss it. This is their mindset. The only thing we can do is to make sure they are not late.

The same thing applies to mall and school shooters. They have made up their minds. There are no hostages and no surrenders. They are going to try to be famous. They are going to kill as many people as they can, and then end their own life to avoid capture. The best we can do is to make them get to phase two as quickly as possible.

This is the first time I've ever seen anyone draw that parallel between active shooters and suicide bombers. But it rings true and it's so obvious once you did it. I want to think about it. Thank you.
 
If laws have no deterrent affect, then their only purpose is vengeance. Shall we repeal all of them?

What is wrong with vengeance? Works for me!

It is not the laws that have deterrent effects. it is the punishment that deters. If punishment is random and a long way off, it is not much of a deterrent.
 
Dave, I'll resist my initial inclination to pile on, given your description of yourself as a "fairly liberal Democrat" who's new to gun ownership and "here to learn". I am also here to learn, and I've learned a lot.

You asked to debate the logic of a new law making a gun owner responsible for the irresponsible behavior of another, and have proposed that such a law will serve to prevent tragedy. I can't help but lament that such is the typical mindset of someone who advocates a collectivist solution to all of society's ills. If there is a solution to the problem you have posited, I suggest that whatever it is, a law imposing additional restrictions on individual freedom isn't it. It may feel good to pass laws such as you've proposed, just like it "feels good" for some to believe you can actually ban guns out of existence. Just like it "feels good" to punitively tax those greedy rich people whoever they are. But that's all it does. Don't mistake feeling good with accomplishing anything. In the end you cannot legislate free will into nonexistence. Social architects have tried controlling free will for centuries. The only possible result is a closed society that oppresses the law-abiding with equal cruelty, a situation that inevitably leads to that society's destruction through bloody internal revolution, or equally bloody foreign intervention. You can however, legislate consequences for involuntarily removing someone else's free will. We already have plenty of that. It's not perfect, but it's served us longer than any other free society on Earth.

One of the things I've learned here is that while I consider myself a fairly conservative Republican, I've come to realize that neither "conservative Republicans" nor "liberal Democrats" have adequately addressed my concerns as an individual who values individual freedom and prosperity. It's common to think that these groups represent two sides pulling in opposite directions. I've learned this is an oversimplification at best, and frankly, I feel as though I've been betrayed by it. I've concluded these two apparently opposite sides are each pulling in a direction counter to the principles that have kept this country free for generations. Unlike most other responses you'll probably get, I find no inherent conflict between the values of a self-described left-leaning Democrat and those who seek to preserve our Second Amendment rights. There is room in the pro-RKBA camp for liberal Democrats. However, I humbly suggest you reconsider what has made you espouse your values as a "liberal Democrat" and determine if sticking that label on yourself remains in your best interest. I would give the same advice to those who would blindly back those labeling themselves "conservative Republicans". Think for yourself. Challenge conventional wisdom. Question authority - after all, isn't that a liberal bumper sticker? :)

I applaud you for opening your mind to gun ownership and the logic of self-defense, but I humbly suggest your education is only beginning. If you intend to continue your education don't underestimate the effort you'll need. Thinking requires work, and the willful suspension of the emotions that drive many well-intentioned liberals to making illogical, damaging choices with their lives and society.

It's not easy. In any event, you've come to the right place to learn. Keep doing that. I will too.
 
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