How to handle being cuffed for your own safety

[Doggy Daddy]

Re: "For your own safety"

Many years ago, I worked as a salesman in an appliance type store. It was not a chain store, and there were many hand-lettered signs posted about the premises advising patrons of various policies and such.

The owner was really big on using the phrase "for your convenience" on the signs. I remember a sign being posted to advise that weekend hours would be shortened from 9am - 7pm to 10am - 6pm. The sign read"

For Your Convenience
We will now be open from
10am to 6pm
On Sat and Sun.

For some reason this thread reminded me of that sign... :banghead:

 

[BigBadJohn]

I've been cuffed for the officers safety,but I'm 6'2'' 260lbs and heavily tattooed,
The big excuse around here is you match the description of someone we're after.This has happened to my son as well. Then they ask you if they can search your car reminding you if you don't consent they'll impound the car and get a warrant. When all is said and done they usually apologize for the inconvenience. They're just doing their job.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I think all the people on this thread who like to whine about cops should try not calling them when something bad happens. Since cops are so arrogant and like lording their power, you don't really need them anyways. Let those of us who appreciate their service use that service.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

taurus owner wrote:

I think all the people on this thread who like to whine about cops should try not calling them when something bad happens. Since cops are so arrogant and like lording their power, you don't really need them anyways. Let those of us who appreciate their service use that service.

I completely agree.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[highorder]

maybe I missed something; did anyone hear about this or watch the video?

http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=82447

lets make sure I have this right:

you can be arrested for no reason, and if you don't submit to any and all commands including those that violate your civil rights as well as departmental policy, you can be charged and convicted of resisting arrest?

please tell me that I am mistaken, and what happened to that woman was lawful, legal, and morally right.

 

[plexreticle]

Cuff me or whatever. Don't tell me it's for my safety. I'm not a fool, there is no way I'm safer with handcuffs on.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Highorder wrote:

lets make sure I have this right:

you can be arrested for no reason, and if you don't submit to any and all commands including those that violate your civil rights as well as departmental policy, you can be charged and convicted of resisting arrest?

please tell me that I am mistaken, and what happened to that woman was lawful, legal, and morally right.

Highorder, I won't lie to you.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[highorder]

I think that's tacit agreement?

anyone else care to weigh in on the video, as it pertains to the thread?

 

[BigBadJohn]

We don't have all the info, Strip search justified? probably not. Do you think the PD would videotape something that is incriminating to themselves? They were probably taping it for their protection against a lawsuit..
If it was my wife I would probably be in the cell next to her shortly there after.

 

[Wheeler44]

Sans Authoritas says,

Highorder, I won't lie to you.

Funny, your answer did not really answer the question. Are you a LEO and do they teach those communication skills at Leo school?

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Wheeler44 wrote:

Funny, your answer did not really answer the question. Are you a LEO and do they teach those communication skills at Leo school?

Highorder wanted us to "please tell me that I am mistaken, and what happened to that woman was lawful, legal, and morally right."

To say that it was any of the above would be a blatant lie. The actions inflicted on that woman were vile, unspeakable abominations. To add to the abomination, the legal system will not see justice done to those... entities wearing badges.

Whether or not it was "legal" does not make it any less of an abomination. Slavery was "legal," too.

To answer your question, yes, they do teach the use of multiply-interpretable statements at police academies. It's how they get confused people, innocent or guilty of either a real crime or a malum prohibitum "law," to trip and ensnare themselves in an illogical web of legalistic nonsense from which they cannot extricate themselves.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[Harpo]

What happened to the woman in the video appears to be an atrocity, but unfortunately it's completely believable.

You only have to watch a few episodes of "Cops" to realize that the entire mindset of our police forces has changed drastically in the last 30 years. The words "To protect and to serve" are now little more than a cliche that current PD's are embarrassed to remove.

My question is this: Since when did the "safety of the officer" become paramount? Risk is a part of an officer's job, and when any and all efforts are taken to remove it (including humiliation and degradation of the general public), something has gone seriously wrong.

If officers were properly trained - and had some common sense - they would be able to identify those situations which constitute a true threat. Instead, the current policy seems to be "assume everyone is a bad guy". This is not "police protection" - it's police domination. It's done under the guise of "officer safety", but that's pure bull. Any officer worth his badge is capable of maintaining his safety without handcuffing every traffic stop, or resorting to the various strong-arm tactics now so common.

The really sad part is the fact that these tactics are self-defeating - if compliance is really the goal... Of course, if the goal is actually to instill fear of cops in the innocent citizen - the type of fear I'm seeing in this thread - then the tactics are indeed successful.

Sorry for the rant, but this touches a nerve with me. And yes, I'm a former LEO.

Harpo

 

[pernicus]

taurus owner wrote:

I think all the people on this thread who like to whine about cops should try not calling them when something bad happens. Since cops are so arrogant and like lording their power, you don't really need them anyways. Let those of us who appreciate their service use that service.

I completely agree.

thats a nice idea you two seem to share, however it does not consider the fact that paying taxes and their paychecks is not optional regardless of whether or not you call them, and if you are caught protecting yourself you could be charged with something anyway

 

[Sans Authoritas]

taurus owner wrote:

I think all the people on this thread who like to whine about cops should try not calling them when something bad happens. Since cops are so arrogant and like lording their power, you don't really need them anyways. Let those of us who appreciate their service use that service.

Sans Authoritas wrote:

I completely agree.

Pernicus wrote:

thats a nice idea you two seem to share, however it does not consider the fact that paying taxes and their paychecks is not optional regardless of whether or not you call them, and if you are caught protecting yourself you could be charged with something anyway

In all fairness to me, I think Taurus and I were taking entirely different tacks on the topic.

I am fully aware that paying certain men to continue brutalizing people (not that all of them do, but it certainly is a strong tendency of those whose income is assured at gunpoint) is not optional. I am also fully aware that if I am (caught? a perjorative?) protecting my life, the civilians with badges might show up and arrest/punish/have me punished for doing no evil. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps we should wait over 7 minutes (about the national average, if I remember) for the police to arrive and protect us, instead. Let's hope they don't drag us to jail and strip us naked when they arrive, as happened to Mrs. Steffey. (And doubtless dozens of others, who have not been noticed or rallied around, because they were actually guilty of some breach of the law. After all, nobody cares about basic human dignity for "those" people.)

-Sans Authoritas

 

[TAB]

if your going to detain/cuff me, I had better be under arrest, if not you and your agency will be hearing from my lawyer. Filing the Claim alone means I win, It cost me almost nothing, but it will cost the agencys $$$$ to both investage and fight said claim.

 

[biscuitninja]

Wow, that is completely aborrant what they did.

I hope ALL those officers get THROWN off the force and the 350lb, 10 sandwich eathing, tin badge loses his retirement as well as his job. BUT then again when the JURY see that and read the STRICT letter of the law. Do you REALLY thing things will go the way they wanted?

I don't fight the officers, but I won't show them fear or weakness.

The other thing that I do is that I keep a small recording device on me so that they get the EXACT conversation. Not the police's account or cut versions. You would be surprised what police say.

As for dealing with it, sometimes you have to go along. BUT that doesn't mean you can't file a report as well as fileing a report with the district attorney and attorney general. I guarentee these things get taken down and noticed.

-bix

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

if your going to detain/cuff me, I had better be under arrest, if not you and your agency will be hearing from my lawyer. Filing the Claim alone means I win, It cost me almost nothing, but it will cost the taxpayers $$$$ to both investage and fight said claim.

fixed

 

[jcoiii]

Guys, if you are stopped for a traffic violation, you have been legally detained. You are detained for the amount of time (reasonable standard applies) that it takes to run your DL/license plate/etc. THEN, once the gun was seen, you are further detained until the gun can be verified as not stolen. Now, once this gun was seen on the front seat, the driver was (in this case) cuffed while the serial number was run. And contrary to popular internet law, you can be cuffed even if you are not under arrest (in some states. apparently MN is different according to a poster.) Ex: fighting- officers roll up on a fight. everyone is cuffed until stories are figured out. then those that need jail are going. the others are uncuffed.

To the OP, sounds like you got some guys who were possibly ignorant of your state's laws regarding open carry, or just nervous about a gun on a person they'd stopped twice in two days... Not saying they're right, just trying to guess at what they might have been thinking.

As to the "he called for backup so he could say whatever he wanted later and have a witness" .... LOL. He called for backup b/c this was the second time he'd encountered this guy AND this time, he found a gun. You always call for backup when you find a weapon. It's common sense on this end of things.

 

[coyotehitman]

+1 to Jcoiii

To Sans Authoritas

Not sure how my number of posts effects anything or makes me less qualified than you at posting my thoughts, but OK. Taking the low road? Nah, rousing someone who has an axe to grind and a soapbox to stand on is more like it. I did make a couple of attempts to joke (the whole OVI thing, etc, etc.), but I can see you are VERY, VERY, SERIOUS with your life and joking is simply out of order. Debate the SC ruling with you; it wouldn't do any good, you are obviously correct, you know everything, and no amount of debate or reasoning could possibly change your beliefs.

This is a serious statement, so do not misconstrue it. I am extremely sorry to have offended you in any way. I clearly did not realize who I was dealing with and your views on the world. Had I known this, I would have avoided discourse with you completely. I hope you win the battle.

 

[Mannix]

I think El Tejon and Deanimator have it right. There's a place to argue with cops, but it sure as hell ain't right there on the side of the road. Keep your influential friends and your lawyer for later .

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Debate the SC ruling with you; it wouldn't do any good, you are obviously correct, you know everything, and no amount of debate or reasoning could possibly change your beliefs.

You're posting in a public forum; perhaps you could post information, facts even, and posit your position and reasoning for those of us who could possibly change our beliefs, even if Sans Authoritas does not.

I, for one, would be interested in seeing your response.

 

[Orthonym]

What are you people thinking?!

Traffic stops used to be, and ought to be, friendly admonitions for violating safety rules, which is what traffic laws are, which is why we are not allowed juries when disputing an accusation.

These days, traffic stops seem to be an excuse for the "only ones" to mess with us, and dominate us, because they feel like doing that, and because they have guaranteed impunity for anything they do.

 

[crazed_ss]

I was stopped for having an expired vehicle inspection sticker. I had been stopped and ticketed for the same two days before by the same officer. This time they made sure there were two officers on scene.
Officer found the weapon laying on the seat beside me. In plain view. My hands were on the wheel.
They asked me to get out, secured the Ruger and hooked me up while one searched my car and the other stood there with me.
You don't need a CCW/HCP for vehicular transport or if it's in plain view in NC.

This was a very rural, very wealthy, very small town in the middle of nowhere.
They cited me 4 times in 2 weeks for the sticker.
Even the ADA in traffic court said it was pretty excessive, and dismissed all but one ticket, but still sided with them.
Once I changed vehicles and started driving a Porsche 944, complete with expired sticker, the stops stopped because they didn't know what I was driving.
Them's the facts.
I surmise that they used two officers in that stop to corroborate the story that I gave them permission to search.

Why not keep your tags up to date like you're supposed to? It's real easy to do.

It almost sounds like you're trying to bait the cops.. Anyone who drives around with expired tags with a handgun on the seat in plain view is practically ASKING for special attention from LE.


Also.. I think it's funny how gun people constantly gripe about police. It reminds me of how rappers and gangbangers complain about cops.. as if the cops are out there just to violate you because they're powertrippin thugs.. gimme a break.

 

[crazed_ss]

These days, traffic stops seem to be an excuse for the "only ones" to mess with us, and dominate us, because they feel like doing that, and because they have guaranteed impunity for anything they do.

Police have "guaranteed impunity".. really?
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/l...,1,5438721.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true

 

[inkhead]

I actually don't know why it matters for this discussion if it's legal or not.

It's going to happen period. Even if you are being wronged, at the time I'd relax, try to be calm, and immediately, (if your willing to get hassled) tell the officer you want your attorneys card out of your wallet because he needs to be notified. (this is excessive, and cops hate you for using your rights)

I have a shoulder injury, and kindly explained to the office who asked me to step out, that he was going to place me in cuffs that it was going to cause tremendous pain. He was nice enough not to cuff me while we chatted. He was very nervous young cop... I was annoyed but almost felt sorry for him.

P.S. Those cops in Ohio who forcibly took the clothes off that women? When I was in school, I remember in Columbus and Cleveland the DOJ I believe had setup a office because the area had so many dirty cops. The story was that a group of cops were into drugs, and would take hookers to abandon apartments rape them... Apparently one ended up dead... (don't know the whole story), But I do know walking across the street, as a normal white, (math geek looking) guy at 9pm at night in a safe neighborhood, got a gun pulled on me, and when I called to file a complaint, I immediately got harassed, and was told to come down in person, who was I, what business did I have filing a complaint... The usually coverup bullcrap...

I know it's might not feel high road, but I think honest IS high road. I deal with federal LE, crappy military contractor security and such, and I really, really don't enjoy them. There is so much corruption. I know there are a lot of honest cops out there, but anytime I've ever been pulled over in the last 5 years I nearly have a panic attack, and feel like a horrible person, for something I haven't even done wrong.

I'd say 90% of all my dealing with LE has been awful, however the other 10% was fantastic open, friendly officers..

Personally I'd say the midwest (aka Indiana, Ohio, Illinois) have some of the worst officers (sorry guys), but it seems like they are always trying to be more "bad ass" as if they need to catch up to big departments like the CHP. So far in California and New York city, I can't believe how nice the police officers have been compared to an awful experience in columbus, ohio, and indianapolis, indiana.