How would you treat a so-called "pro-gun group"...

[Monkeyleg]

I've got dozens of threads going about a certain gun group in my state, and I'm getting some mixed responses.

So, let's assume that there's a group in your state that calls itself pro-gun. And it's doing the following:

1. Asking its members to call and try to defeat your state's first shall-issue bill.

2. Calling the NRA, your state-level pro-gun organizations, and the volunteers who give their time to such efforts "advocates of gun control."

3. Calling the passage of a shall-issue CCW bill "gun control," when the only people who would be on any sort of list would be those who voluntarily apply for CCW permits.

4. Raising tens of thousands of dollars to defeat your shall-issue bill.

5. Spending thousands of dollars to defeat the single most pro-gun member of your state legislature, at a time when the anti-gunners are seeing a chance to defeat that same legislator as well. Also at a time when the defeat of this legislator, if combined with the defeats of just a few others, could hand control of the state legislature back to the anti-gun crowd.

6. Attacking you personally, the volunteers who have worked with you for over five years, the legislators who have worked with you in crafting one of the best shall-issue CCW bills in the country, the NRA in general, your state's NRA/ILA lobbyist in particular, and anyone else who has worked to get your state into the list of shall-issue states.

Forget about where I or others on THR live. Just imagine that you were fighting for shall-issue in your state, and you had a group such as I've described above working against you.

How would you respond? How hard would you hit back? What would you do?

Don't try to look at it from my perspective. Look at it from yours.

If this was your problem, how would you handle it?

 

[Chipperman]

This appears to be a new tactic of the anti's, They come up with a group, claiming to be Pro gun, in order to divide opinion among gun owners. There are several websites out there now which area clearly anti if you read between the lines. They are targeting "Sportsmen" who they feel they can lure away from the "Hard core" violent Militia men that we all are here.

 

[DesertShooter]

How would I deal with them? I'd look upon them as part of the "axis of evil", and post their web sites in THR, TFL and other TRUE pro-gun forum boards! If they were to be inundated with e-mails and new, PRO-gun members that spoke their peace, they'd either have to shut down or "conform"....and you know that they wouldn't conform!

The "wacko's" in various agenda-driven groups have resorted to hardcore deceit over the past few years, figuring that if they repeat something enough times, there will be people who think that it must be true. They've been able to get the liberal news media on their side. I absolutely hate it when a "news" account is reported as factual, coming from a "high-placed and reliable source", but that "source" doesn't wish to be named!

HMM! Sort of like John Kerry, who continually repeated, "I have a plan!", yet NEVER explained what it was!

 

[langenc]

I would work with local gun clubs and point out their position re $ to defeat 'helpful' legislators etc.and advise them no more $ from me (us). Certianly write to editors pointing out fallicy of position.

They can call themselves whatever they want (note HSUS & PETA) but must remember--

'by their fruits ye shall know them'.

 

[1911 guy]

What would I do?

Call them out load and often for their duplicity in public forums such as this. Make their name and lies known. Post a web address where we can write in and tell them what we think of their tactics and dishonesty. Above all, tell other gunnies what the name is so they don't support this organization without proper research.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

OK, the suspense is killing me...

 

[Mr White]

Do you mean an organization like this scam?

 

[Silver Bullet]

This appears to be a new tactic of the anti's, They come up with a group, claiming to be Pro gun, in order to divide opinion among gun owners. There are several websites out there now which area clearly anti if you read between the lines. They are targeting "Sportsmen" who they feel they can lure away from the "Hard core" violent Militia men that we all are here

You're probably right.

 

[Silver Bullet]

I'd look upon them as part of the "axis of evil", and post their web sites in THR, TFL and other TRUE pro-gun forum boards.

We're halfway there. Monkeyleg, who is this organization ?

 

[Zundfolge]

Sounds like a lot of THR posters if you ask me.

Too many "ideological purists" who believe that CCW is a violation of the 2A (because by rights we should have national "Vermont Style" carry). And until the NRA goes to Washington and demands EVERY SINGLE GUN LAW be reversed they are nothing but a "tool of the antis".


Is this pro-gun group maybe in Wisconsin?



As for what to do, I honestly don't know. Its clearly one of those "with friends like these who needs enemies" situations ... if you can get a bunch of pro CCW folk together and create an organization to counter them that would be great, but that's neither easy nor cheap.

 

[BigO01]

Simple divide and conquer tactics , bad news is there are many gun owners dumb enough to fall for all of it .

I can clearly recall an article in a local paper about the AW Ban years ago , they managed to find a moron at a range "Pictures included" who went on and on how he was in complete agreement with the thing , funny thing was the retard was into competitive target shooting with rifles and had his target tuned AR15 in his hands as he talked to them and posed for pics .

The NRA at one time had a very strong wing that was into historical and rare gun collection and strongly disagreed with the then new 70's political movement and involvement to protect the RKBA for the so called common guns and uses of such because they thought they shouldn't soil themselves with such things . Instead all they were worried about were laws that effected collectors of "Fine" arms .

What was it PT Barnum said about a fool being born every minute ?

 

[Silver Bullet]

BigO01, I think there are plenty of folks out there with low self-esteem who are desperate to be with the "cool" people, since to not be with them is to not be "cool".

 

[ETXhiker]

Do you mean an organization like this scam?

Thanks MrWhite. Wow, I never heard of AHSA before, but this kind of stealth anti-gun club is scary. Probably will sucker a lot of people who haven't given it enough thought. Bummer.

 

[Autolycus]

That AHSA did not look that bad initially. Could you guys post a link to the anti-2a stuff cause I didnt really see it? I am being 100% serious but I couldnt see anything that bad in a few cursory glances.

 

[SomeKid]

Two prongs.

He isn't talking about AHSA. He is talking about a group in WI, but he wants ideas on what we would do. That said...

If I had the ability, I would look into first and foremost and illegal/corrupt activities taken. Left-wingers are strong believers in the rule of law for us, and only for us. Odds are the enemy has broken a few laws and you should see if you can get them reamed for it.

Secondly, use them to your advantage. Paint yourself as the common sense middle of the road moderates, between the anti gun people (Doyle) who would strip all rights from you, and those whack-jobs who want anyone to carry minus background checks/safety classes etc. (I am a purist, and I personally support permitless carry, but in WI, the landscape is different.) SO, to the hunters you are less extreme, and therefore you can approach them easier. Maybe. It isn't the best thing in the world, but it helps being able to claim the middle ground.

 

[progunner1957]

6. Attacking you personally

What would I do? File a multimillion dollar lawsuit for slander and/or libel, and donate all the proceeds to the NRA and GOA. There's nothing like beating them with their own stick!

 

[Mr.V.]

That AHSA did not look that bad initially. Could you guys post a link to the anti-2a stuff cause I didnt really see it? I am being 100% serious but I couldnt see anything that bad in a few cursory glances.

you gotta dig a bit...but all the evil is there...
http://www.huntersandshooters.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=98&Itemid=39
They believe "that firearms are for self-protection" but do everything they can to point out that "you're just going to shoot your eye out, kid"

here's the worst...
http://www.huntersandshooters.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=126&Itemid=32

"Since the passage of the NFA in 1934, crimes committed with machine guns are almost nonexistent. Because of the potential for criminal misuse, the immense “fire power” and the potential for terrorist use, AHSA believes the .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles should be regulated in the same manner as the federal government regulates machine guns under the provisions of the National Firearms Act of 1934."

Which is a complete lie. Gangs use fully automatic weapons rather frequently...the stat they're quoting is that registered users of full-auto weapons haven't comitted any crimes since then...because as it turns out...if you're a law abiding citizen, you probably aren't going to shoot up your 'hood...

I think the majority of antis are simply afraid of & misguided about firearms...but these guys are, in the words of Rainier Wolfcastle, commie-nazis...

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

these guys are, in the words of Rainier Wolfcastle, commie-nazis...

Or, maybe they just disagree with you (and me) on those particular issues. I believe it's possible for someone to be generally pro-RKBA without believing that those rights are absolute. So what if they agree on most gun ownership rights, but disagree on full-auto or .50 bmg? Then, ally with them when you can and oppose where you must. I hope the RKBA community can fit under a little bit bigger tent than the population of THR.

 

[ETXhiker]

AHSA also talks about being sure manufacturers make "safe" guns and warns against keeping a gun in the house for self-defense. Even voices the "43 times more likely" lie. If you dig in and read you will see that the org is a front for an attempt to separate hunters and politically naive shooters from the 2A.

 

[Mr.V.]

Malone--

ordinarily, I'd say you're point was perfectly right. However, in this particular case, if we look to the founders of it, we see the makings of a more sinister agenda...

John E. Rosenthal is the current president AND the president of "Stop Handgun Violence"
http://www.stophandgunviolence.com/

Bob Ricker...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Ricker
He's famous for accusing gun manufacturers of being neglegent for not installing retinal scans in the guns before you can use one...

Also the formation of the organization in general is distateful. It wasn't an organization of hunters and shooters first which later became politically active with their supposed "common-sense" approach. They earned no street-cred first. They wrote all their articles at once and threw them together in one fell-swoop.

I'd go so far as to say it was a conspiracy if they weren't so completely overt about it. I don't know. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but the American Hunters and Shooters Association deserves little doubt about their true agenda.

 

[Autolycus]

Thanks for showing me what I could not see MR. V.

Did you all know that .50 caliber sniper rifles are the chosen weapons of terrorists such as Al Queada and the IRA? Did you know that street gangs and motorcylce gangs also consider .50 cals to be their chosen weapon?

 

[Barbara]

Either find a way to work with them, or ignore them, I guess.

Michigan's gun rights have been a mess for a few years with the one group that could function being taken over by a corrupt trade union and now campaigning for anti-gunners, and several other groups (including at least two that are for-profit..what the heck is that about??) splintering off, and some of the others acting like pro-gunners are the enemy and squabbling amongst themselves. All you can do it try to rise above it and carry on doing what you know is right. Personally, I just ignore the politics of gunnies and try to concentrate on the politics of gun rights.

I hear you on the frustration thing, though..I had one out of state person right to tell me that they would not at all be interested in participating in our Kids Day event because we were affiliated with the NRA. Sheesh, dude.

Good luck, Dick. Have confidence in yourself. You're doing a good thing and no amount of bs from that crew is going to change that.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

Well, I did say "maybe."

But I think it's probably good for us to tone down some of our rhetoric around here. There are fence-sitters and others out there that generally support our rights, without necessarily being absolute. I find them in the most unexpected places, if I establish myself as a reasonable guy before giving my position on RKBA.

I'm still dying to know what group Monkeyleg is writing about. From the examples he gives, it doesn't sound like a covert gun-grabber group, it sounds like some loose-cannon gunnies.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Malone LaVeigh, the group is Wisconsin Gun Owners. I've written many posts about them, the most recent of which is at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=227324

If a group tries to kill pro-gun legislation by claiming to be pro-gun, there's little difference between that group and an anti-gun group. Both have the same goals.

 

[mons meg]

Just do a quick "more posts by Monkeyleg" and the answer will come up soon enough. I won't "out" them in this thread as Mr. Leg has refrained from doing so.

It's quite an entertaining story.