HP-38 and 9mm disappointed

[fmiller4]

Hi All!

I recently got a large quantity of HP-38 and want to use it for 9mm. I made up some loads using xtreme 124's, shooting 4, 4.2, and 4.4 grains off sandbags at 25-yards.

None of the groups were very encouraging, however, averaging around 6 inches...

Looking at the Hodgdon site, it lists 4.4 grains as the max for this bullet.

BUT - looking around I found reference to people using much hotter loads (this thread from here is a good example: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-556472.html).

Can any of you give me some guidance here? Is 4.4 grains the absolute max or can I go hotter? I have a chronograph, if that helps...

Thanks!

f

 

[LiveLife]

With "regular" thickness plated bullets around .004" thick copper plating, I have found using higher than mid range jacketed load data decreased accuracy and shot groups scattered.

Plated bullets with rounded bullet base makes seating the bullet easier but leak A LOT of gas, especially if your barrel has longer leade/freebore the bullet has to jump from case neck to the start of rifling so you want to use longer working OAL, like around 1.160", to decrease gas leakage and improve accuracy. So determine the max OAL and then see what the longest working OAL your barrel/magazine will allow - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

Also, you want to minimize the amount of taper crimp as to not cut/indent into the copper plating or you can kiss accuracy goodbye. Too much taper crimp can squish/reduce the bullet diameter which will leak even more gas that will hinder consistent chamber pressure build and affect bullet base/bearing surface engagement with rifling, especially for pistols with oversized barrels (greater than .356" groove diameter).

So I suggest the following:

- Try longer 1.160" OAL if your barrel/magazine will allow reliable feeding/chambering
- Use .378" taper crimp to minimize cutting/denting into plating
- If using FCD, pull the loaded round to see if you are post sizing the bullet. If the bullet diameter is reduced, decrease the amount of FCD or set the FCD aside and taper crimp only
- Redo powder work up at 4.2, 4.3, 4.4 grains

If your barrel is oversized, X-Treme advertises 9mm bullet diameter sized at .355" and you may want to try larger sized plated bullets like Berry's Hollow Base (.3555"-.356") or RMR HM (.356") bullets that are thick plated to increase accuracy by decreasing gas leakage.

BTW, Hodgdon's latest load data actually uses Berry's HBRN-TP bullet - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

124 gr BERB HBRN TP W231/HP-38 Bullet Dia .356" COL 1.150" Start 3.9 gr (920 fps) 27,400 PSI - Max 4.4 gr (1,037 fps) 31,900 PSI

 

[Rule3]

Delete

 

[higgite]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data that may be beyond some currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


I don't shoot off of sandbags nor at 25 yards, but FWIW, I load and shoot X-treme 124gr plated HPs with 4.4gr of W231 (same stuff as HP-38) at 1.09" COL. I have also loaded and shot X-treme plated RNs with 4.4gr of W231 at 1.12" COL. You didn't say which type of X-treme bullet you're using nor what your COL is. That might be helpful info.

Edit: Rule3 beat me to the bullet and COL questons while I was verifying my load data. I hate it when that happens.

 

[fmiller4]

Thanks for your replies.

I'm not using a crimp die, and f I remember correctly, my OAL is 1.165.

BUT this is my first time out with these bullets and I've had good accuracy with Bayou Bullets through this gun (a Tanfoglio match)...

I'd like to stick with jacketed; lead and coated bullets jam up in my feeder...

But based on what I'm hearing I'll try some other brands...

Thanks!

 

[snakeye]

I would re-look at how you loaded your rounds...It is not often some complains about HP-38 and any bullet combination

 

[wlkjr]

Your oal looks mighty long. I load those same bullets at 1.120-1.130 but a different powder.

 

[splattergun]

I'm using HP38/W231 @ 4.3 grains under Berry's 124 gn plated RN, 1.135 in my P89 and getting very good results.
Bonus, brass falls 2 feet from my right foot.

 

[Dudedog]

I had good results with the Rocky Mountain Reloading 124gr 9mm Hardcore Flatnose Plated.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=211151&d=1433639833

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=211153&d=1433639925

Both at 4.0gr and at 4.4gr. (except for the one I pulled....:banghead: )
WSF shoots better for me but I would be happy with HP38.
Not familiar with that bullet but you might want to back off to 4.0gr and try seating a bit deeper.
Longer OAL less jump to the barrel, shorter OAL better neck tension

Springfield 1911 9mm 5"
S+B SP Mixed brass
4.0 HP38 OAL 1.065
RMR 124gr FN Average ES SD PF
1045 1031 1040 1040 1033 1037.80 14 5.72 128.6872

4.0 HP38 OAL 1.10
RMR 124gr FN Average ES SD PF
1004 997 1021 1025 1021 1013.60 28 12.32 125.6864


4.2 HP38 OAL 1.10
RMR 124gr FN Average ES SD PF
1077 1062 1063 1055 1071 1065.60 22 8.53 132.1344

4.4 HP38 OAL 1.065 (seated deeper)
RMR 124gr FN Average ES SD PF
1116 1111 1103 1107 1109 1109.20 13 4.82 137.5408

4.4 HP38 OAL 1.10
RMR 124gr FN Average ES SD PF
1099 1113 1112 1098 1116 1107.60 18 8.44 137.3424

The first five numbers are the individual vels, the 6th the average, 7th is extreme spread, 8th is SD, 9th is power factor.

 

[fmiller4]

Thanks for all of your input!

I've made a new test batch, 4, 4.2, and 4.4 grains, at 1.130 and 1.115.

I'll test this weekend and let you know what i get.

 

[Potatohead]

Hp38-A thing of the past!

But yea, why so long on the OAL? Thats max is it not? But whatever floats your boat I guess, I dont want to be an OAL Nazi.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Did you say you weren't crimping? That is not advisable, bullet setback is a possibility which is dangerous. Not crimping may be causing an inconsistent burn of the powder causing poor accuracy too. I use a lot of W231 in the 9mm with jacketed and lead bullets and accuracy has never been a problem. I hope changing the OAL will help, your original rounds were loaded long. Small differences in bullet seating depth in the 9mm changes the pressures, sometimes by a lot. I usually seat most RN bullets to 1.115" or 1.125" but of course bullet profile can change that.

 

[Potatohead]

What!? No crimping? That's what holds the bullet! Just kidding-

I'd go with what AACD said, he usually knows his stuff..

 

[Louca]

Fm, thanks for posting this and for all the others for their replies. I am in exactly the same situation that he was in, trying my first time load of 9 mm rounds. I am using RMR 124 gn RN (plated) bullets.

My first loading was with 4.4 gn of W231, OAL of 1.110, CCI 500 primers.

I went to the range and first fired five rounds of PMC 124 grain factory rounds, then shot five rounds of my handloads. I wanted to compare felt recoil since I was trying to make my handloads somewhat close to a factory load. After firing, the hand loaded rounds had a little less recoil than the PMC rounds. I did not have a chronograph, but if I get velocities somewhere close to what Dudedog got, I will be happy. I also did not test for accuracy as I only shot at a metal plate at about 15 yds.

I was going to try maybe going to 4.5 gn or maybe even 4.6 gn to see if felt recoil changed, but now I am thinking I will just stay with 4.4. I always have a suspicion that powder manufacturers tend to stay on the overly conservative side when publishing data. So I was thinking that 4.4 might actually be a light load which I really don't want. Don't get me wrong, I don't like recoil and I don't want more recoil, I just wanted something close to a factory load. And when the recoil felt lighter, I was thinking maybe the published data was just real conservative. I have seen some others that went higher than 4.4 in the 124 grain bullet. But I don't think I want to risk anything.

And the other thing is, sometimes the recoil can actually feel lighter when the round still has the same amount of energy based on the kind of powder that is used. And I hope that is the case here. I know, I need to start getting more scientific about things and not using recoil but getting a chronograph and looking at velocities.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO accuracy is more important an additional 50 fps. I worry first about accuracy when developing a load because it won't matter how fast a bullet is traveling if you don't hit what you shoot at.

 

[ljnowell]

IMO accuracy is more important an additional 50 fps. I worry first about accuracy when developing a load because it won't matter how fast a bullet is traveling if you don't hit what you shoot at.

Just quoted that to make sure it was read. That's the truth of it.

 

[Gadawg88]

For what it's worth, my standard 9mm target load uses 4.6gn HP-38, 124 gn Xtreme plated HP, CCI sp primer, 1.10 OAL. 4.6gn gave me the best accuracy from my XD sub compact. I tried 4.0, 4.2 and 4.4. Your mileage may vary.

 

[egd]

My favorite is 4.2 gr with RMR 124 rn at ~1.133. Mixed brass and S&B primers.

 

[Louca]

IMO accuracy is more important an additional 50 fps. I worry first about accuracy when developing a load because it won't matter how fast a bullet is traveling.

Well, it does in IDPA. There you have to meet a minimum energy level. If you were speaking about bullseye shooting, I would agree totally (and I would probably be shooting a plated flat point). In IDPA, we're talking about a few yards to the target. In my case, I am quite sure my error is much greater than the pistol's imprecision. If/when I am at or slightly above the minimum energy level, then I want minimum recoil.

Lou

 

[7mmb]

You don't say which Xtreme 124gr bullet you are using. I've settled on their 124gr RN for all of my 9mm loads and get excellent accuracy out my Witness Match and Witness P-S. The correct OAL for the Xtreme RN is 1.135". This is where the entire shank of the bullet is inside the case with only the ogive out of the case, just like on factory FMJs. At this OAL it will pass the plunk test in any 9mm chamber. I crimp with the Lee FCD and expand with the Lyman M die.

I use slower powders for loading 9mm. Fast powders like HP38/231 will work but you will get better results with a powder that is optimized for the cartridge. I've had excellent results with Power Pistol, SR4756, 3N37 and N350. Powders in this burning rate is where 9mm shines. A lot of people complain that the slower powders are louder and harder kicking then faster powders. I first started handloading 357 Magnum followed by Ruger-only 45 Colt and 45 Auto. 9mm with max loads of Power Pistol doesn't seem very loud or hard kicking to me. I can't understand why someone would go through the labor of handloading and select a powder that isn't best suited for their cartridge only to end up with mediocre ammunition.

 

[LiveLife]

I use slower powders for loading 9mm. Fast powders like HP38/231 will work but you will get better results with a powder that is optimized for the cartridge.

I can't understand why someone would go through the labor of handloading and select a powder that isn't best suited for their cartridge only to end up with mediocre ammunition.

I disagree and many match shooters who consider fast burning N320 to be THE 9mm powder would disagree also.

I use slower burning than Unique/Universal/BE-86 for full power loads and used HS-6/WSF/AutoComp/CFE Pistol for 9mm but would not consider W231/HP-38 and faster burning powders to be less suited for 9mm.

Fast burning powders like WST and Titegroup have produced very accurate 9mm loads for me as shown in picture below of sub 2"-3" shot groups at 25 yards - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9924922#post9924922

I use even faster burning Bullseye/Red Dot/Promo for 9mm with very good results and Red Dot/Promo are my current powder of choice for general range practice/plinking loads.

 

[ljnowell]

I disagree and many match shooters who consider fast burning N320 to be THE 9mm powder would disagree also.

I use slower burning than Unique/Universal/BE-86 for full power loads and used HS-6/WSF/AutoComp/CFE Pistol for 9mm but would not consider W231/HP-38 and faster burning powders to be less suited for 9mm.

Fast burning powders like WST and Titegroup have produced very accurate 9mm loads for me as shown in picture below of sub 2"-3" shot groups at 25 yards - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9924922#post9924922

I use even faster burning Bullseye/Red Dot/Promo for 9mm with very good results and Red Dot/Promo are my current powder of choice for general range practice/plinking loads.

I load AA#2 in 9mm and it's obviously a pretty fast burner. It does very well.

As far as 231/hp-38 I have never cared for it. I never found it to burn as clean, or do anything that other powders don't do better.

I guess to me it's like unique. I just can't understand the fascination with it.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

My fascination with W231 is it meters like water and most times it produces accurate ammo. BUT, if everyone was alike there wouldn't be dozens of handgun powders on the market with new ones being released fairly often the past few years.

 

[Hondo 60]

Your oal looks mighty long. I load those same bullets at 1.120-1.130 but a different powder.

When I read the OP, that was my first thought.
Are your completed rounds passing the "plunk" test?

 

[LiveLife]

I found most 115/124 gr FMJ/plated RN profile bullets to work in most barrels (factory & match) at longer 1.160"-1.169" OAL/COL and even longer than SAAMI max for barrels with longer leade/freebore.

With 124 gr bullets, when I am using powder/charges that may get compressed with shorter 1.135" OAL, I use longer 1.160" OAL, especially hollow base bullets with longer base. I think this is the reason why Berry's MFG recommends using longer 1.150" for their 124 gr HBRN-TP bullets and Hodgdon tested Berry's HBRN-TP (BERB) at 1.150" OAL.

With 115 gr bullets, due to shorter base, I use shorter 1.135" OAL to increase neck tension that helps with initial chamber pressure build up. But if I use too short of OAL, because 9mm is a tapered case, I actually start to lose neck tension and bullets can be pushed inside the case with moderate finger pressure.

Since I load for multiple pistols, I typically use 1.135" for 124 gr FMJ/plated RN bullets but if I want to squeeze out more accuracy for a particular pistol/barrel, I will use longer 1.160" to reduce high pressure gas leakage.