HP-38 strange fouling

[washambala]

So I started reloading recently, and was told that HP-38/W231 is pretty much as versatile as is get. I have tried working up some loads with it, but I keep getting some really nasty fouling with it. It looks like lots of little orange/yellow crumbs. Ive loaded it hot and mild in 38 special and 380 but it consistently happens with all loads. They are mainly in my barrels but they also get into my actions and just all over everything in general. I've read a lot of stuff about reloading, but never heard of anything like this. Any thoughts?

 

[243winxb]

With a revolver, i point the muzzle up , then eject the fired brass. Seems to help using 2400 & HS-6. No experence with 231.

 

[Reefinmike]

Does it look kinda yellowish/green? I have noticed this with low pressure loads. Increasing charge weight seemed to get rid of it. In my case, it was unburnt powder. Hold a lighter to it and it will flare up. What bullets and charge weights are you using???

 

[washambala]

It was more yellowish than green. I dont remember the loads in 380 I was trying, but they covered the range listed by Hodgdon from min to max. In 38 special, it was really bad with light loads under a 148gr HBWC, I think it was 3.0gr. Recently tried it again with hornady cowboy 140gr with 4.6gr of powder which Hodgdon lists as a max load. Same results. I could go a little hotter if that would help. The only 38 I own is actually a 357 ruger, so it should handle some slightly over pressure 38 special.

 

[ljnowell]

Classic sign of too little pressure to burn clean.

 

[washambala]

You think maybe I need to bump it up to 5.0 for those 140 gr bullets? And why is it that people seem to have such good results with ~3.0gr under the 148gr HBWC? Could I be doing something else wrong that would cause me problems?

 

[1KPerDay]

You're not doing anything wrong. People love the stuff but I have found it generally unimpressive. Inconsistent when loaded below max, Flashy when loaded hot and pretty dirty all the time. Lots of unburned crud. Meters well though. I mostly use it for .380 and it does well enough there for me.

 

[RecoilRob]

Many 'Cowboy' type loadings are very light...being that they have a velocity limit to save targets and not a pressure limit on the cartridge itself. 231 usually burns very cleanly...so that sure sounds like it's not up to pressure enough to combust properly.

Just for an experiment: you could try loading up some 'test' ammo and ramp up the charges to see if you can notice a pressure level where they clean up. 38 Special cases can handle high pressures as well as .357's and if used in a Magnum revolver there shouldn't be any safety issues by going over listed Special loads....just don't ever use them in a regular 38 revolver!

The other thing might involve more of a crimp will hold the bullet for that split second longer and can change a dirty burning charge into an acceptable one...sometimes. If you're not crimping heavy, that would be something I'd experiment with. I've used 231 for over 30 years and can't remember ever thinking it was dirty....but then again I've never played with minimum charge weights and have tended to go closer to the Max where it runs very nicely.

 

[springer99]

I've load 231/HP38 for years in 45ACP, 9mm and 38Spl. The only time I noticed unburned powder residue as described, was when I loaded my 45ACP too light.

 

[243winxb]

With ball powder, i think magnum primer. I do use a mag primer in both 38 & 357 mag.

 

[Rule3]

Not gonna comment on powder charges, but a lot of so called powder "fouling" is actually the lube on lead bullets.

Been using HP38/W231 for years on lots of calibers and never experienced "greening, yellowing"

 

[mdi]

No big deal. Either up the load (using your reloading manual) or ignore the burned flakes/debris. I doubt if it will hurt anything...

 

[LiveLife]

It was more yellowish than green. I dont remember the loads in 380 I was trying, but they covered the range listed by Hodgdon from min to max. In 38 special, it was really bad with light loads under a 148gr HBWC, I think it was 3.0gr. Recently tried it again with hornady cowboy 140gr with 4.6gr of powder which Hodgdon lists as a max load. Same results. I could go a little hotter if that would help.

OP, STOP and THINK.

If you are at max load data, I would not increase powder charge until I investigated some things.

I have used W231/HP-38 for about 25 years and never seen yellow/green unburnt powder. I believe base color of W231/HP-38 is gray with black coating. Is there any chance the powder was contaminated? Could you dump out the powder in the hopper and load some test rounds with fresh powder from the bottle?

Something doesn't sound right and I would not increase powder charge from max load data until I have more information as to what may possibly be reducing chamber pressure (oversized barrel, undersized bullet, squishing bullet, not calibrated scale, etc.):

- What is your groove diameter of the barrel?
- Is your leade/freebore extra long?
- What OAL/COL are you using?
- Are bullets way undersized for your barrel?
- How much taper crimp are you using?
- Is your scale properly calibrated and do you have check weights to verify accuracy?

 

[lauderdale]

The way you described it I would also think powder problem/contaminated maybe?

 

[rfwobbly]

Either bad powder as per the above ^^^

Or he's using a Lee FCD that's under-sizing the bullets for him.

Really, there's too little info to answer the question.

 

[dannyd]

Been using HP-38/W231 for 27 years and just started getting this with the new powder. They may have changed something.

 

[washambala]

The other thing might involve more of a crimp will hold the bullet for that split second longer and can change a dirty burning charge into an acceptable one...sometimes. If you're not crimping heavy, that would be something I'd experiment with.

The crimp is a little tricky for me. Its always seemed very subjective to me, and pictures havent helped much. It doesnt help that these bullets are hornady and have no crimp groove. The lead is just very soft and you crimp into the side of the lubed lattice looking area.

Not gonna comment on powder charges, but a lot of so called powder "fouling" is actually the lube on lead bullets.

This is happening also, but its separate. I guess hornady lubes all of their bullets with a dry powder lube. It does what its supposed to, but it does make a light cloud when you shoot.

Is there any chance the powder was contaminated? Could you dump out the powder in the hopper and load some test rounds with fresh powder from the bottle?

These were all loaded from a fresh bottle. No powder measure was used. They are scooped directly to the scale.

- What is your groove diameter of the barrel?
- Is your leade/freebore extra long?
- What OAL/COL are you using?
- Are bullets way undersized for your barrel?
- How much taper crimp are you using?
- Is your scale properly calibrated and do you have check weights to verify accuracy?

-No idea on the barrel dimensions. Never really looked into slugging it.
-Long Leade? Its a 357 and these are 38 special, so there is that jump. Other than that, its a factory revolver. I see no reason why it should be excessive.
-Bullets all seem to be between .357 and .358
-The crimp is a roll crimp and I think maybe a medium crimp, but Im a little fuzzy on that. see above.
-The scale is an RCBS beam scale, calibrated at zero per the manual. I dont have check weights, but theyre on the list.

These were crimped with the hornady seating die that I have. Separate step from the seating. Seated to 1.450" per Hodgdon and the hornady manual. No FCD was used, though I just bought one. Havent tried it yet.

Regarding max loads, that 4.6gr charge is listed as max from Hodgdon, but the Hornady manual goes all the way up to 5.3 for a max. I made a whole range of loads to test going from 4.0gr up to 4.6, figuring that the more conservative data would probably be better, but they all behaved the same way. Maybe 15,000psi just isnt enough for the powder to work properly. All the other major calibers I see that use it have higher max pressure. Maybe using a jacketed bullet would make the difference.

 

[ljnowell]

OP, STOP and THINK.

If you are at max load data, I would not increase powder charge until I investigated some things.

I have used W231/HP-38 for about 25 years and never seen yellow/green unburnt powder. I believe base color of W231/HP-38 is gray with black coating. Is there any chance the powder was contaminated? Could you dump out the powder in the hopper and load some test rounds with fresh powder from the bottle?

Something doesn't sound right and I would not increase powder charge from max load data until I have more information as to what may possibly be reducing chamber pressure (oversized barrel, undersized bullet, squishing bullet, not calibrated scale, etc.):

- What is your groove diameter of the barrel?
- Is your leade/freebore extra long?
- What OAL/COL are you using?
- Are bullets way undersized for your barrel?
- How much taper crimp are you using?
- Is your scale properly calibrated and do you have check weights to verify accuracy?

I have definitely seen this with W231. It turns a yellow/green color when it's burning poorly.

Now, if he is at the max loading then I would question the load data or powder quality. It's quite possible he is loading a different bullet than the data calls for, I didn't catch that at the beginning of the post.

 

[washambala]

It's quite possible he is loading a different bullet than the data calls for

The bullet used is a Hornady "Cowboy" 140gr bullet. The data used was for that bullet out of a hornady manual and for that bullet in Hodgdons online manual. Hodgdon lists a starting load at 4.1 and a max of 4.6. The Hornady manual starts at 3.5 and goes to 5.3gr. The hornady manual lists it as 231 and seems to think that 231 is different from HP38, which I already know isnt accurate.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

So much above to talk about I can't even remember. 15,000 psi is more than enough pressure for W231 to burn cleanly. There have been no reports about W231 being changed. I doubt they would change a highly successful powder anyway. Almost everything the OP is saying about W231 is incorrect in my findings. I'm a fan if W231 but not blindly. I like it because it works very well for me in many cartridges. Something may be wrong with your bottle of W231 but not W231 in general. You are getting classic signs of low pressure but your scale says no. Did you check your scale?

I charge 3.2gr W231 in a 148gr HBWC .38
I charge 3.4gr W231 in a 148gr DEWC .38
I charge 4.0gr W231 in a 158gr LSWC .38
Never a problem for me and that's with CCI500 or WSP primers.
Magnum primers are needed with slow ball powders, not with W231/HP-38.

Something is just not right.

 

[LiveLife]

These were all loaded from a fresh bottle. No powder measure was used. They are scooped directly to the scale.

-No idea on the barrel dimensions. Never really looked into slugging it.
-Long Leade? Its a 357 and these are 38 special, so there is that jump. Other than that, its a factory revolver. I see no reason why it should be excessive.
-Bullets all seem to be between .357 and .358
-The crimp is a roll crimp and I think maybe a medium crimp, but Im a little fuzzy on that. see above.
-The scale is an RCBS beam scale, calibrated at zero per the manual. I dont have check weights, but theyre on the list.

I have definitely seen this with W231. It turns a yellow/green color when it's burning poorly.

If powder is not contaminated and bullet diameters are .357"/.358" with medium roll crimp, as ljnowell posted, it's gotta be low powder charge.

Until you get a set of check weights, you can use new/clean 1/4"x1/4" of 20 lb copy paper handled with tweezers/forceps and 2 pieces should weigh about .1 grain to test sensitivity/repeatability (but you should use check weights in the powder charge range you are using) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9596742#post9596742

 

[rfwobbly]

The crimp is a little tricky for me. Its always seemed very subjective to me, and pictures havent helped much. It doesnt help that these bullets are hornady and have no crimp groove. The lead is just very soft and you crimp into the side of the lubed lattice looking area.

The bullet in question doesn't use a crimp groove because you push the entire full diameter (all the lattice area) of the bullet into the case and crimp around the small shoulder at the ogive. Getting a full crimp is going to raise the chamber pressure as the powder indicates is needed.

Getting the bullet deeper into the case is also going to work to increase the chamber pressure which will also lead to better powder burn characteristics.

So your issue is one of simple ignorance, which is completely curable. By "ignorance" I mean to infer that you simply didn't know. We could have saved you a lot of time, money, and aggravation if you had simply asked how deep to seat these unique bullets, and posted more details weeks ago. However, you are correct. These are NOT your standard lead bullets with a crimp groove, of the type you expected.

Hope this helps cure your issue.

 

[washambala]

The bullet in question doesn't use a crimp groove because you push the entire full diameter (all the lattice area) of the bullet into the case and crimp around the small shoulder at the ogive.

I just pushed one into an empty case to try it out. It looks like a more proper seating depth, but COL like this measures 1.352" where as both manuals call for a COL of 1.450". Im pretty new to this, but Ive been trying to do things by the book until I get a feel for it. I looked into it at one point, and I found some info on a forum that someone got from a Hornady tech rep. The rep said that the lattice was soft enough to crimp straight into the side of it to make your own groove, and that the bullets were intended to be crimped like that at their published seating depth.
I dont take any offense at being called out on my ignorance. Ive only been doing this for a few months in my spare time.

It also doesnt help that I dont have a chronograph.

I havent loaded too many of these yet, so it hasnt been a complete waste of time. I have a nice load for a HBWC using 3.0gr of American Select. I also was able to work up comparable loads with 700-x and titegroup that work just fine. Im just putting the effort into trying to make the HP-38 work because I bought a bunch of it before I started loading on a friends advice. The american select is proving hard to find.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You keep saying HP-38 isn't working but it's not the powder.

Do you have any other bullets you can load in the .38 Special? I would like to hear the results with a bullet where the seating depth is set by the bullet manufacturer in the form of a crimp groove. Any jacketed bullets available?

There are countless numbers of reloaders using that powder successfully. I wish you could see how well if works in the .38 Special, .45 ACP and many others.

 

[washambala]

I have a bunch of 158gr JHP that I can try out. The extra weight and the jacket resistance could help. I also have some 110gr JHP freebies. How big of a deal is the published COAL? I feel pretty safe if Im within a couple thousandths of the published number, but is pushing in the bullet another 10th of an inch going to be a big deal? I do have a decent safety margin because the only gun these will go in is a 357. I guess what Im getting at is there any reasonable way to estimate how changing the case volume will affect pressure and how I could safely change the powder charge to compensate?