HP-38 vs. Universal

[Skinnedknuckles]

Given the difficulty finding HP-38 (and the possible long-term phase-out based on Hodgdon's emails) I'm looking at Universal (once again relatively available) as a replacement. Actually, I was considering it before the shortages began, but Universal has been even more invisible than HP-38 until recently - a fire at the plant?

Looking at the Hodgdon website for .38 Special, 9mm Luger, and .45 ACP, the charge weights and velocities seem almost identical for the two powders. Also, I love how HP-38 meters and I've read that Universal meters similarly (unlike Unique, which I was not happy with). Am I missing anything, or am I likely to be happy with Universal? Even if I do have to work up new loads (poor me - more reloading and shooting required).

Thanks for the input.

 

[Zendude]

Universal meters well through my Lee autodisk.
What is Hodgdon saying that indicates HP38 might be going away?

 

[AnselHazen]

I ran across this some time back when searching for powder.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-785777.html

 

[Slamfire]

I bought a pound of Universal and have been testing it in 44 Special and 45 ACP. For the M1911 I like my 230 grain bullets to be traveling just at 800 fps. This is the original 1910 cartridge velocity specification, while I can push the bullet faster, and some factory ammunition will push a 230 to 900 fps, 800 fps is plenty powerful and easier on the pistol.

Universal is a smaller disc'd powder than Unique. So it should throw better, it really does not make must of a difference to me as all my loads are tossed on a Dillion 550B. I don't weigh charges except for setting up the powder horn. My charges are an average of ten throws .

Based on my limited testing, W231 shot better. However, I shoot offhand, shooting lots of ammunition beats me up, so, maybe I would do better with Universal a second time. I don't have a Ransom rest and therefore there is always a bit of uncertainty about my accuracy results and it takes hundreds of rounds and a number of shooting sessions before I am confident in a load.
But, my Bullseye loads and W231 loads are so outstanding, I don't plan to change over to Universal.

[SIZE="3"][B]Springfield Armory NM1911 Kart Barrel 45ACP	[/B]	
					
					
230 LRN Valiant  5.5 grs W231 Mixed cases, Brass WLP OAL 1.245"	
14-Dec-15	T =  65 ° F		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =816				
Std Dev =17.6				
ES =	90.41				
High = 	856.9				
Low=	766.5				
	30
				
better, tighter groups than Universal loads. 	
					
230 LRN Valiant  5.0 grs Univeral lot 42711 (4-27-2011) Mixed cases, Brass WLP 
OAL 1.250", taper crimp 0.469"				
					
14-Dec-15	T =  65 ° F		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =742.4				
Std Dev =37.46				
ES =	183.8				
High = 	821.7				
Low=	637.9				
N=	30				
reasonable accuracy, soft shooting, no leading, 4 clicks up from ball. 
					
		
					
230 LRN Valiant  5.4 grs Univeral lot 42711 (4-27-2011) Mixed cases, Brass WLP 
OAL 1.250", taper crimp 0.469"				
					
14-Dec-15	T =  65 ° F		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =781.6				
Std Dev =25.78				
ES =	87.48				
High = 	818.2				
Low=	730.7				
N=	18				
 					
Accuracy OK, harder recoil[/SIZE]

Universal shot well in my 44 Special. I am happy with Unique so I don't plan on replacing any of my Unique loads with Universal. As a warning for those with Charter Arms Bulldog's or antique 44 Specials, any 240 grain load over 6.5 grs Unique is way too hot for these revolvers. My modern M624 and Ruger Blackhawk are not having any issues with my loads, but these are over max for lightly constructed or antique pistols.

[SIZE="3"][B]4" M624   44 Spl[/B]			
					
					
240 LSWC  6.5 grs Universal  thrown,  lot 4-27-11 mixed Brass WLP	
T = 58 ° F	30-Dec-15		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =849				
Std Dev =26				
ES =	107				
High = 	893				
Low=	786				
N =	18				
					
240 LSWC  7.5 grs Universal  thrown,  lot 4-27-11 mixed Brass WLP	
T = 58 ° F	30-Dec-15		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =976				
Std Dev =29.18				
ES =	121.2				
High = 	1012				
Low=	891.5				
N =	21				
 
			
					
240 LSWC Valiant  6.6 grs Unique thrown,  lot UN364 3/9/92 Mixed cases, Brass WLP
T = 70 °F	4-Apr-09		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =860				
Std Dev =22				
ES =	78				
High = 	878				
Low=	800				
N =	10				
					
240 LSWC   7.0 grains Unique,   Midway cases, WLP (brass) 	
T= 45-50 °F	15 Dec 2002				
					
Ave Vel =903		 
Std Dev =21		 
ES =	82		 
Low = 	860		 
High = 	942		 
N  = 	33		
					
240 LSWC Valiant  7.5 grs Unique thrown,  lot UN364 3/9/92 Mixed cases, Brass WLP
T = 70 °F	4-Apr-09		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =966				
Std Dev =23				
ES =	65				
High = 	986				
Low=	921				
N =	12				
					
					
240 JHP  6.5 grs Unique thrown,  Midway Brass WLP		
T = 64 °F	25-Feb-07		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =	791				
Std Dev =	35		 		
ES =	115		 		
Low = 	846				
High = 	731				
N =	9				

[B]44 Spl Ruger Blackhawk 5.5" barrel [/B]	
					
240 LSWC Valiant  6.25 grs Unique thrown, lot 6/21/98 Midway cases, Brass WLP
T =  68 ° F	14-Dec-15		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =	842				
Std Dev =	17				
ES =	71				
High = 	873				
Low=	803				
N =	16				
					
240 LSWC Valiant  6.6 grs Unique thrown, lot UN364 3/9/92 Mixed cases, Brass WLP
T = 70 °F	4-Apr-09		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =	899		913		
Std Dev =	18		21.49		
ES =	55		78.17		
High = 	926		955.4		
Low=	871		877.2		
N =	10		12		
					
					
240 LSWC Valiant  6.6 grs Unique thrown, lot UN364 3/9/92 Midway cases, Brass WLP
T ≈  60-65 ° F	19-Apr-09		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =	875				
Std Dev =	26				
ES =	110				
High = 	915				
Low=	805				
N =	25				
					
240 LSWC Valiant  7.5 grs Unique thrown,  lot UN364 3/9/92 Mixed cases, Brass WLP
T = 70 °F	4-Apr-09		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =	1007				
Std Dev =	19				
ES =	59				
High = 	1038				
Low=	979				
N =	12				
					
					
240 LSWC Valiant  7.5 grs Unique thrown,  lot UN331 8-89  Brass WLP	
T = 68 ° F	14-Dec-15		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =	986				
Std Dev =	14				
ES =	53				
High = 	1012				
Low=	960				
N =	32				
					
240gr Magtech JHP  7.5 grs Unique thrown, lot UN364 3/9/92 Brass WLP	
T = 68 ° F	14-Dec-15		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =	990				
Std Dev =	8				
ES =	27				
High = 	1006				
Low=	980				
N =	12				
extremely accurate				
	
					
240 LSWC  6.5 grs Universal  thrown,  lot 4-27-11 mixed Brass WLP	
T = 58 ° F	30-Dec-15		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =	889				
Std Dev =	37				
ES =	129				
High = 	951				
Low=	822				
N =	18				
					
	shot low left, decent accuracy		
					
240 LSWC  7.5 grs Universal  thrown,  lot 4-27-11 mixed Brass WLP	
T = 58 ° F	30-Dec-15		 		
		 			
Ave Vel =	1028				
Std Dev =	14.07				
ES =	54.23				
High = 	1052				
Low=	998				
N =	10				
					
	light leading at breech end, accuracy OK.[/SIZE]

 

[Walkalong]

Universal is pretty good stuff, and I think you would like it, but Zip is nearly a direct replacement for W-231. Use Zip data of course. Any of that available?

 

[Dudedog]

I really like Universal and it was my favorite until there was none to be had (years?) due to the plant fire. Universal meters great. Just a little slower burning than HP38/Win231.
I much prefer it to Unique, meters much better (as well as HP38). Not as bulky as Unique but little bit less dense than HP38. Unique has a more velocity potential on the high side but is dirtier and does not meter well for me in 9mm size charges.

As far as Universal vs HP38. I like Universal a bit better in 9mm, Universal does work well in .45 but I like HP38 better in .45 ACP.
To close to call for midrange (.38 special power) loads in .357. HP38 is a bit better for light to mid .38 loads IMO.
To close to call in 9mm MAK, Universal maybe a tiny bit better.

Pick some up I'm sure you will like it.
Please let us know how it works out for you.
VMDs
HP38 listed .0926 calculated .093
Universal listed .1099 calculated .11 (Universal and HP .38 are very close to the listed VMD)
Unique listed .1092 caculated .132 (for my jar a least)

 

[stubbicatt]

Warning, slight thread veer:

I wonder... I like a 10 grain load of Unique with a 180 grain gas checked cast bullet in 30-30. Do you suppose Universal will work as well in that application?

 

[LiveLife]

.38 Special, 9mm, and .45 ACP ... Given the difficulty finding HP-38 ... looking at Universal

I love how HP-38 meters and I've read that Universal meters similarly ... Am I missing anything, or am I likely to be happy with Universal?

Picture above shows Universal compared to W231/HP-38 and Unique. It meters well and I get +/- .1 gr variance (with W231/HP-38, less than .1 gr variance).

Have you considered BE-86? I consider BE-86 modern unique that meters very well.

As Walkalong mentioned, Zip is also very close to W231/HP-38 and I found Green Dot close enough to use if W231/HP-38 is not available.

I also prefer W231/HP-38 for 38Spl/9mm/45ACP but also use Red Dot/Promo for 38Spl/9mm/45ACP.

 

[mongoose33]

I ran up some loads using Universal in 9mm early in the fall and it performed wonderfully. I don't know that I would use it extensively unless I could get an 8# jug of it because I don't like working up loads only to buy powder a pound at a time.

To me, a lot of this is related to what you can find. I lucked into an 8# jug of HP-38 this summer, snapped it up. However, I don't load a tremendous amount of 231/38, but it's such a universal (sorry) powder that I couldn't leave it sit on the shelf.

A few years back I was trying to standardize powders so I didn't need so many; I load WST in 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP, and it performs very well. We're starting to see WST recipes in loading manuals, .45 is starting to be somewhat common, I ran across my first one for .40 last summer, haven't yet seen it listed for 9mm. Yeah, I worked up my own loads in 9mm.

If someone was Jonesing for that 8# jug of HP38 I'd probably effect a trade or sell it and get something else. But my main motivation right now is laying in supplies that can survive 8 potential years of a Hillary administration.

 

[david bachelder]

I started out on Universal then switched to HP-38 because I couldn't find Universal. I wouldn't have any problem switching back.

 

[ilmonster]

I don't know about HP-38 going away, but a local gun shop just got in some more HP-38 and I picked up two 1 lb. bottles of it for $19 a pop. They also had some 8 lb. jugs in stock.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

I've also been able to purchase some 2015 manufacture HP-38 and Win-231, so I'm not too worried, but given recent experience I figure that I can't have too many alternatives for powder choices.

 

[wbrco]

I've found that Universal is much dirtier in my 38 Special loads. It leaves a light haze over the entire gun, whereas HP-38 does not. I have not found the problem with my 9mm with Universal, but have not tried HP-38 in that gun. Besides, it seems to like BlueDot a lot.

FWIW I'm shooting all cast bullets, but the Universal haze is there with jacketed bullets too. It's not a lube issue.

 

[oneounceload]

I switched from Unique to Universal decades ago - much cleaner burning and works in a variety of my guns from 32s to 45s

 

[dragon813gt]

HP-38/W231 isn't going anywhere. Maybe St Marks will reformulate it in the future. But ADI is currently reformulating their entire Clays line. So Universal will be changing. I forget the schedule but it's at the front of the line.

I use both. As mentioned Zip is practically identical and a good replacement for HP-38. I use Universal the most w/ heavyweight 9mm bullets. But like Unique it will work in pretty much everything. And it will actually meter.

 

[chris in va]

Universal was my very first powder a few years ago. It became scarce so I switched to a few other powders and while they worked fine in my 9mm, my 45 started jamming for no apparent reason.

The heavens opened up, a shaft of light came down and behold...a 4# jug on the shelf. Once I switched back to Universal my finicky 45 started to run right. Don't know why, but why question a good thing.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Universal is nice, meters great, but in low pressure cases like .38 & .45 auto it needs to be near max before it burns completely and consistently. Once you hit that point it's great, very clean burning. Best in small auto cases like 9mm, .38 Super & .40, but I don't think HP-38 is going anywhere.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

As mentioned above by Walkalong, Zip is a very good alternative to W231/HP-38. You can also use AA#5 but it's a slower powder than HP-38. AA#5 works very well in the 9mm and 45 Auto and I have used in the .38 Special but usually for +P pressures although it will work at standard pressures too.