I’m nearly at the end of my rope with my 308.

thump_rrr said:
As is mentioned in the Berger article, this is just a coarse seating depth test.
They claim that one group will stand out.
Then a fine seating depth test should be done in .002” or .005” increments.
Click to expand...

My point is rather that when “one group stands out,” most often, it’s absolute coincidence, random chance, and absolutely nothing to do with the seating depth itself.
 
Varminterror said:
My point is rather that when “one group stands out,” most often, it’s absolute coincidence, random chance, and absolutely nothing to do with the seating depth itself.
Click to expand...
I understand your point about statistics.
Using statistical analysis I would need to shoot at least 80 rounds to discover if one group is better than the rest.
They claim it can be done in 24.
I guess we will find out soon enough if there is a considerable margin in one of the 4 COAL's.
Maybe Eric Stecker is full of crap
Walt Berger only promoted him to president of Berger Bullets.
What the hell do they know about load development that we don't?

In their methodology you are to perform the same test twice.
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups.
You would think that should make it less coincidental.
Direct quote from the article.
I added the bold for emphasis.
https://bergerbullets.com/getting-the-best-precision-and-accuracy-from-vld-bullets-in-your-rifle/
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Click to expand...
 
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JFrank said:
Circling back just a tad bit, seating won’t help a poor powder to bullet combination or a powder charge that is not in a node.
Combustion is still number one.
Click to expand...
I understand that but if you look at the target shot with the 178 BTHP's 3/4 have single digit SD's.
The 4th group has an SD of 10.2.
This should mean that combustion must be good. IMG_9285.jpeg
 
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In the world of lead core bullets, how many shooters in this thread or on this forum broad have tuned a 1.3moa 100 yard load into a 1/2moa load with seating depth?

thump_rrr said:
if you look at the target shot with the 178 BTHP's 3/4 have single digit SD's.
The 4th group has an SD of 10.2.
This should mean that combustion must be good.
Click to expand...

Looking at those results, knowing what we know, when we have ~10SD with ~20-25ES, we know we’re missing part of the picture, so the velocity data isn’t reliable. 5 shot groups with stable velocities should begin approaching ES = 4-5x SD, and having ES = 2-2.5x SD kinda shows we’re getting more variability than our Range/ES is telling us, so SD is likely to spread pretty quickly if we add more shots to the string. Almost all of the groups/targets on the first page show that ~2:1 proportionality, which if these were my targets, it would make me suspect primary combustion isn’t consistent.
 
Last edited:
thump_rrr said:
I understand that but if you look at the target shot with the 178 BTHP's 3/4 have single digit SD's.
The 4th group has an SD of 10.2.
This should mean that combustion must be good.View attachment 1203291
Click to expand...
Charts and graphs are nice to have but in my world the target is King and honestly and with all due respect those look closer to a scatter node ( anti node) that’s in between a positive node, I’d have to see the entire charge ladder coming into tune and out plus the weather conditions, distance and we’re wind flags present during testing to give a better interpretation. Right now all we see are crappy groups.
 
JFrank said:
Charts and graphs are nice to have but in my world the target is King and honestly and with all due respect those look closer to a scatter node ( anti node) that’s in between a positive node
Click to expand...

I didn't see the post with any charts or graphs (maybe they were posted by someone on my ignore list?), but I agree - looking at his targets, I agree it's pretty clear those are either a scatter node, OR clear that the best that combination will shoot just isn't good.

This really feels like one of those examples where we get lost in the idea of "what shot best during that test?" and get too focused on using that result as a step towards the next step, rather than stepping back and truly being honest with ourselves about the result - sometimes we have to simply realize, "that dog don't hunt" and then move towards a more productive combination. If we have a match bullet over a reasonably well fit powder choice coming out of a custom barrel and punching 1.3moa at 100yrds, that dog don't hunt. We MIGHT turn a few big knobs like changing neck tension or changing powders (aka, hunting with a different dog), or changing bullets, and get that barrel and bullet to shoot, or change bullet and get that barrel and powder to shoot small (again, different dog), but what we're looking at right now isn't solved by the small knob of seating depth.

I really hope none of this is coming off as rude, but there's a lot here that just doesn't make sense. Guys can be snarky about advice from Berger if they want, I guess, but I'm really only trying to offer advice - and I don't think many of us who are shooting small groups and shooting long range REALLY start with 40thou seating depth increments... Maybe if a brand new bullet of completely new design were released, but there's rarely anything new under the sun - SOMEONE has shot the bullets were talking about before we get to them, so we can find info about where we should expect them to shoot well, and in the rare instances when they don't, it might be worth asking ourselves WHY? Maybe there's something else wrong which isn't related to seating depth at all? And frankly, we do learn more every year as more and more of us test, prove, and disprove more and more theories. Records get broken every year, new revelations of ballistic experience (aka science, the study of shooting real bullets at real targets) are earned every year - take Berger's own VLD article as an example, for years they gave advice to seat VLD's jammed or very near the lands, because that's what worked, then enough folks tried jumping them long and had great results that Berger tested it, so they published new information and new advice for seating their VLD bullets:

[quote = "Berger Website: Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD Bullets"]
For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.

[...]It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.

After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”

We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. [...]

Solution

[...]What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.[/quote]

So the advice which was once "Always jam in the lands to get the VLD to shoot" basically was updated to be, "eh, you'll find a sweet spot the size of Kansas somewhere in the middle of the United States..." Berger discovered that life was a lot easier than they originally believed. That's not to say that jamming VLD's doesn't yield great results, but it finally acknowledges that there's likely a HUGE spectrum of things which could and will shoot well.

We're finding out more and more that load development isn't a process of finding a needle in a haystack, but rather it's more like picking a needle out of a stack of needles we know how to make.
 
Last edited:
thump_rrr said:
I have been able to develop plenty of accurate loads with different bullets and rifles.
Click to expand...

Then I have to ask again, what are you looking for from the members of this forum?

A magic recipe that will make a 178gn Hornady BTHP shoot bug holes with your rifle?

Here’s the thing. Once you make a load and shoot it at a target YOUR observations take precedence over everything thing else. That includes all published data available, as well as anecdotal information from every other hobbyists on the planet.

All any of us can do is give you feedback on the process that has been successful for us.

But as you say, you have your way and it has worked well for you. Great.

So what is “your way” whispering to you about these Hornady 178 BTHPs?

(they don’t shoot accurately in your rifle )
 
Last edited:
Varminterror said:
I didn't see the post with any charts or graphs (maybe they were posted by someone on my ignore list?), but I agree - looking at his targets, I agree it's pretty clear those are either a scatter node, OR clear that the best that combination will shoot just isn't good.

This really feels like one of those examples where we get lost in the idea of "what shot best during that test?" and get too focused on using that result as a step towards the next step, rather than stepping back and truly being honest with ourselves about the result - sometimes we have to simply realize, "that dog don't hunt" and then move towards a more productive combination. If we have a match bullet over a reasonably well fit powder choice coming out of a custom barrel and punching 1.3moa at 100yrds, that dog don't hunt. We MIGHT turn a few big knobs like changing neck tension or changing powders (aka, hunting with a different dog), or changing bullets, and get that barrel and bullet to shoot, or change bullet and get that barrel and powder to shoot small (again, different dog), but what we're looking at right now isn't solved by the small knob of seating depth.

I really hope none of this is coming off as rude, but there's a lot here that just doesn't make sense. Guys can be snarky about advice from Berger if they want, I guess, but I'm really only trying to offer advice - and I don't think many of us who are shooting small groups and shooting long range REALLY start with 40thou seating depth increments... Maybe if a brand new bullet of completely new design were released, but there's rarely anything new under the sun - SOMEONE has shot the bullets were talking about before we get to them, so we can find info about where we should expect them to shoot well, and in the rare instances when they don't, it might be worth asking ourselves WHY? Maybe there's something else wrong which isn't related to seating depth at all? And frankly, we do learn more every year as more and more of us test, prove, and disprove more and more theories. Records get broken every year, new revelations of ballistic experience (aka science, the study of shooting real bullets at real targets) are earned every year - take Berger's own VLD article as an example, for years they gave advice to seat VLD's jammed or very near the lands, because that's what worked, then enough folks tried jumping them long and had great results that Berger tested it, so they published new information and new advice for seating their VLD bullets:

[quote = "Berger Website: Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD Bullets"]
For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.

[...]It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.

After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”

We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. [...]

Solution

[...]What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.
Click to expand...

I will try this test and if it doesn't pan out I'll try to find some SMK's or Juggernauts.
As of today there are none within 300 miles of me.
 
Last edited:
Another option since you like heavies
bulletcentral.com

Berger Bullets, .30 Cal, 215gr, Hybrid Target, 30729, (Qty 250)

Enhance your long-range precision shooting with Berger Bullets .30 Cal, 215gr Hybrid Target ammunition. This pack of 250 rounds delivers exceptional accuracy and performance for competitive shooters and enthusiasts. Elevate your shooting game today!
bulletcentral.com bulletcentral.com
If a guy can’t get one of these three options to shoot there are other issues to address. IMHO
 
JFrank said:
Another option since you like heavies
bulletcentral.com

Berger Bullets, .30 Cal, 215gr, Hybrid Target, 30729, (Qty 250)

Enhance your long-range precision shooting with Berger Bullets .30 Cal, 215gr Hybrid Target ammunition. This pack of 250 rounds delivers exceptional accuracy and performance for competitive shooters and enthusiasts. Elevate your shooting game today!
bulletcentral.com bulletcentral.com
If a guy can’t get one of these three options to shoot there are other issues to address. IMHO
Click to expand...
I was thinking you were going to recommend the 200-20x
 
Those are out of stock.

No joy, and to be clear it makes no difference to me what a guy shoots or how well he develops ammunition. No one will no if things get worked out or not unless they post results. I don’t give advice only share if I can.

Just sharing bro..
 
Last edited:
You seem to have a lot of hurdles but maybe this will help you put things into perspective.
Circle back to page one with 178 gr and your post with 41.8 grains and underwhelming results with a load given to you by a friend. ( is this correct ?)
Looking at the Nosler load data for that class bullet we find a report of Imr 4895 and best results ( they’re node) is around 39.5 , you may very well be in the scatter mode I mentioned earlier. Seating changes won’t fix that.
You won’t really know until you perform your own charge ladder conducted with flags out as with any combination. You’ll likely find you answers.

308 Winchester Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.
www.nosler.com www.nosler.com
 

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Some times a certain barrel just plain will not shoot but one or two similarly designed/constructed bullets accurately. You already had a couple that worked. You might want to contact the manufacturers and ask if they are still importing them into your country and if so who that supplier is. Then contact that source and have them shipped to you. Or find another barrel and keep this one for reinstalling if and when you get rid of the rifle and the other barrel is shot out.
 
Varminterror said:
So the advice which was once "Always jam in the lands to get the VLD to shoot" basically was updated to be, "eh, you'll find a sweet spot the size of Kansas somewhere in the middle of the United States..." Berger discovered that life was a lot easier than they originally believed. That's not to say that jamming VLD's doesn't yield great results, but it finally acknowledges that there's likely a HUGE spectrum of things which could and will shoot well.
Click to expand...

Question: What makes VLD bullets so picky, or why are they so polarizing? The little bit I've read about them makes the VLD (and perhaps other secant ogive bullets?) sort of a 'Ford vs Chevrolet' urination contest with some. It's obvious some shooters have good performance with them... otherwise they wouldn't continue to make them (i.e. sales) let alone refine them.
 
Charlie98 said:
Question: What makes VLD bullets so picky, or why are they so polarizing? The little bit I've read about them makes the VLD (and perhaps other secant ogive bullets?) sort of a 'Ford vs Chevrolet' urination contest with some. It's obvious some shooters have good performance with them... otherwise they wouldn't continue to make them (i.e. sales) let alone refine them.
Click to expand...
They are way more sensitive to seating depth and for that reason more difficult to tune. Advantage, higher bc. The lower bearing surface seems to make them more picky. I'll take a nice fat ogive like the 175smk.
 
Charlie98 said:
Question: What makes VLD bullets so picky, or why are they so polarizing? The little bit I've read about them makes the VLD (and perhaps other secant ogive bullets?) sort of a 'Ford vs Chevrolet' urination contest with some. It's obvious some shooters have good performance with them... otherwise they wouldn't continue to make them (i.e. sales) let alone refine them.
Click to expand...
Some bullets are better than others but they all shoot..
I have not experienced any problems getting a ( VLD) secant ogive design to shoot, I posted one example on page one #23 with crappy Hornday 165sst bullets and I could not tell you what the seating depth is nor do I care for this particular rifle. The powder node is clear and that’s the main factor, a reloader needs to perform a charge ladder for themselves and not use someone else’s pet load.

Book loads are strictly reference, put in the work and you’ll likely see the rewards.

Bottom line….
J
 
Charlie98 said:
What makes VLD bullets so picky,
Click to expand...

As I described above, most of us have found that VLD’s aren’t actually very picky.

Charlie98 said:
why are they so polarizing?
Click to expand...

I guess I didn’t know they were polarizing. Maybe some folks can’t shoot and don’t wanna pay for the performance Berger VLD’s can offer?

Charlie98 said:
The little bit I've read about them makes the VLD (and perhaps other secant ogive bullets?) sort of a 'Ford vs Chevrolet' urination contest with some.
Click to expand...

I wouldn’t say there’s a valid comparison to unity between ford vs Chevy for the Berger VLD’s vs. any particular bullet. If a guy wants to pay for handmade bullets like Bart’s Hammers, Robinette’s Bib’s, or Tom Jacob’s Vapor Trails, or copper solids like CEB Lasers, great, if not, VLD’s shoot small when you need to shoot small. Not many, if any other bullets have their reputation - MAYBE the Berger Hybrid, which is even MORE forgiving in profile - but folks tend to know the VLD’s punch inside the Hybrids.

Charlie98 said:
It's obvious some shooters have good performance with them... otherwise they wouldn't continue to make them (i.e. sales) let alone refine them.
Click to expand...
Lots of National records set with Berger bullets. I’ve heard many times that Berger bullets hold more records than any other - not sure if that is true, but I’d be prone to expect they hold more than any other Production bullet.
 
FROGO207 said:
Some times a certain barrel just plain will not shoot but one or two similarly designed/constructed bullets accurately.
Click to expand...

When/if this happens - ditch the barrel. That dog don’t hunt. I’ve never seen a barrel which only shot well with one or two bullets which actually shot well enough with those one or two to deserve to be shot. Performance as good or better could be had from a half dozen other bullets through a different barrel. No sense in riding on a razor edge when a 6 lane super highway is just a barrel away.
 
JFrank said:
Book loads are strictly reference, put in the work and you’ll likely see the rewards.
Click to expand...

I would think that goes for any bullet, but I've found traditional bullets (think SMK or NCC) a little easier to sort out.


Varminterror said:
I guess I didn’t know they were polarizing. Maybe some folks can’t shoot and don’t wanna pay for the performance Berger VLD’s can offer?
Click to expand...

Varminterror said:
I wouldn’t say there’s a valid comparison to unity between ford vs Chevy for the Berger VLD’s vs. any particular bullet.
Click to expand...

Maybe you are misunderstanding my question. I'm not talking about Berger VLD's specifically... but any VLD bullet. Reading through some of the comments here and elsewhere, it seems like shooters either have success with that type bullet... or they don't. My comment with the Ford vs Chevy was probably incorrect, because it implies difference in brands, not bullet design... which was my intention.
 
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