I’m nearly at the end of my rope with my 308.

[thump_rrr]

Sorry for the long post but I’m trying to give a little background.
I have a Savage 10BA in 308.
This rifle was my first ever precision rifle and has served me well for the past 12 years.
Over its lifetime it has been re-barreled 2 times by me with the last being about 3 years ago.
It was fed a steady diet of 175gr and 180gr SMK’s.
If I did my part the rifle shot between 0.4moa to 0.6moa.
As we all know since 2020 availability of components has been hit or miss especially north of the border.
Having run out of 175 SMK’s I went out and bought 2,000 Hornady 178 BTHP’s.
I also bought 8lbs of the now discontinued IMR 4166 Enduron powder.

Having acquired a 6.5 Creedmoor in that timeframe then another, then a 6mm BR the 308 load development fell by the wayside.
I would try 50 rounds here and there but never really gotten anywhere with it.
Results were always around 1MOA sometimes worse but never really better than that.
I even added a Cortina tuner brake to see if it would help. I found a repeatable sweet spot with the brake but the improvement was minimal.

In the last few weeks I decided that I wanted to get the 308 shooting well again so I made another ladder and went to the range last week.
It was windy and the groups were horrible so I blamed the wind and a bad day on my part and threw the targets in the trash and vowed to go back again this weekend.

I went back on Saturday armed with some wind flags and it was quite windy to the point I didn’t want to shoot the load development ammo but I did bring with me 8 rounds made with Berger 185 Juggernauts that I had found cleaning up.
Those were loaded with 43.7gr of Varget.

Despite the wind conditions I shot the 8 rounds
1 sighter for rough correction and 7 for grouping at 300M.

Convinced that the IMR 4166 was the problem I also put together 10 rounds of the Hornady 178 BTHP’s with 41.8gr of IMR 4895 in Lapua brass that a friend swears works well in all 4 of his rifles.
These were the results of those 10 rounds.

A once again underwhelming 1.1moa and 1.3moa.
Convinced that this was a powder issue I went back to my trusted Varget.
I loaded up 5 rounds each of 42.5, 42.8, 43.1, and 43.4, with the 178gr BTHP’s.
This morning just before leaving I loaded up a ladder with some 168SMK’s that I keep for my M1 Garand and some Varget for the hell of it.

By the time I finished shooting the 2nd group I wanted to tear the complete rifle apart right then and there. I checked the action screw torque, scope base torque, ring to base and ring torque just to ease my mind.
If you stop reading right now you would be inclined to say that it’s a bad scope but it’s a S&B PMII 5-25x56 that has been tall target tested for tracking on another rifle not so long ago and it shot the Bergers on Saturday reasonably well.
It also went on to shoot the 168SMK’s below.






Is it just that this bullet doesn’t shoot well?
Maybe it can be made to shoot better with a different seating depth or powder?

Any suggestions would be appreciated since I have 1600 of them swapping bullets right now would be the last resort.

 

[lordpaxman]

Listening in…

 

[Condor]

I would look at seating depth.

 

[Charlie98]

Is it just that this bullet doesn’t shoot well?
Maybe it can be made to shoot better with a different seating depth or powder?

Any suggestions would be appreciated since I have 1600 of them swapping bullets right now would be the last resort.

I've had sort of the same frustration with my Savage 10TAC in .308, with factory 24" barrel. Trying to find The Load, with different bullets, and different powders was just a trail of woe and frustration. A few observations...

1) Enduron powders are not very good. I tried IMR4451, in lieu of the more reliable 4350's, and it was a disappointment. IMR (Hodgdon) has discontinued the Enduron series powders, and I'm not shedding any tears. I love IMR4895... but not in .308 with heavy bullets. It's great with 150's in both the .308 and .30-06, but I use IMR4064 for anything .30cal in 165grn and up. For you, that would include Varget, which is similar.

2) I have not had good luck with any other bullet in my Savage besides the 168 and 169grn SMK's (I have not moved to 175grn or heavier... yet.) I've tried the Hornady BTHP's, and VLD-M's, as well as the Nosler CC... and the accuracy was terrible. Further, the SMK beat everything else I've used, including Hornady, in 6.5CM (140-142grn.) Those other bullets may be capable of better accuracy than I'm getting, but at my current level of handloading... I can't find it. The SMK has always been the easy button.

My accuracy barometer has been the 168grn FGMM load... which uses the 168grn SMK. I stopped what I was doing, and worked up a short ladder with the 169grn SMK (different bullet, much longer than the 168grn SMK, but still responds very similarly...) and IMR4064, using a charge that QuickLoad told me would be equivalent to what FGMM produces, velocity-wise, and *Bingo!* there's my accuracy load. It was so incredibly simple-stupid.

As far as your current stash of bullets... like Condor suggests... I would start working on COL, using a tried and true powder, and see if that doesn't get you somewhere. If that doesn't work, then I would try a different powder, using the same methodology.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I've had good luck with Imr4166 in 30-30, not so much in .308 or 30-06.
Of powders that are easily obtainable right now, Superformance and Tac have given me the best results so far with 168 bthp and 178eldx in .308. If you had some H4350 or Imr4064 on hand I'd try those and see what you get.

 

[Charlie98]

Tac

I've had good results with TAC as well, but it's a little more picky than IMR4064.

 

[jmorris]

Is it just that this bullet doesn’t shoot well?

Do you only own 1 308? First thing I do is try and find the weak link. Another rifle changes everything but if it shoots great, you couldn't conclude the bullet was a bad design.

 

[Charlie98]

Do you only own 1 308? First thing I do is try and find the weak link. Another rifle changes everything but if it shoots great, you couldn't conclude the bullet was a bad design.

Interesting you mention that.

I load for 3 different 6.5CM rifles... NONE of them like the Hornady bullet.

The .308 is a little different... my Savage seems to favor the SMK, but my brother's new Ruger American really liked the Nosler CC. It makes sense... my Savage shot the NCC better than the Hornady, but not better than the SMK... in my brother's rifle, the top 2 swapped places (SMK vs NCC,) but the Hornady still ranked last.

Hornady makes a great bullet for the .223/5.56mm (their 62grn FMJ and BTHP,) and the 150grn FMJ in .308, but by and large, I leave their rifle bullets on the shelf.

 

[Lefty38-55]

I'd look up the Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) method by Dan Newberry -

Home

- and would try that. Once the node(s) is/are identified, then you could play with the depth, but I've never ever have needed to.

 

[Nature Boy]

Looks like the 185 Juggs and Varget is the answer to your dilemma. 0.6 MOA 7 shot at 300m.

 

[thump_rrr]

I've had good luck with Imr4166 in 30-30, not so much in .308 or 30-06.
Of powders that are easily obtainable right now, Superformance and Tac have given me the best results so far with 168 bthp and 178eldx in .308. If you had some H4350 or Imr4064 on hand I'd try those and see what you get.

I have 24lbs of H4350 and 17 lbs of IMR 4064.
The problem with 4064 is its temperature stability isn’t all that great.

 

[thump_rrr]

I'd look up the Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) method by Dan Newberry -

Home

- and would try that. Once the node(s) is/are identified, then you could play with the depth, but I've never ever have needed to.

I’ve done it twice with that bullet using both IMR 4166 and Varget. Nothing good has come of it.

 

[thump_rrr]

View attachment 1202789

Looks like the 185 Juggs and Varget is the answer to your dilemma. 0.6 MOA 7 shot at 300m.

If I could find 185 Juggernauts or 175 SMK’s in Canada I would buy them.
I would even buy 175 ELD-M’s if I could find them.

That still leaves me with 1600 178 Hornady BTHP’s

 

[Lefty38-55]

Have you tried the 'RMR' bullets yet?

 

[Kaldor]

Have you tried the 'RMR' bullets yet?

RMR doesnt make a 308 caliber bullet, unfortunately. My AR10 would enjoy that

 

[thump_rrr]

View attachment 1202789

Looks like the 185 Juggs and Varget is the answer to your dilemma. 0.6 MOA 7 shot at 300m.

If I could find 185 Juggernauts or 175 SMK’s in Canada I would buy them.
I would even buy 175 ELD-M’s if I could find them

Interesting you mention that.

I load for 3 different 6.5CM rifles... NONE of them like the Hornady bullet.

The .308 is a little different... my Savage seems to favor the SMK, but my brother's new Ruger American really liked the Nosler CC. It makes sense... my Savage shot the NCC better than the Hornady, but not better than the SMK... in my brother's rifle, the top 2 swapped places (SMK vs NCC,) but the Hornady still ranked last.

Hornady makes a great bullet for the .223/5.56mm (their 62grn FMJ and BTHP,) and the 150grn FMJ in .308, but by and large, I leave their rifle bullets on the shelf.

Their ELD-M’s in both 140gr and 147gr work really well in my 6.5 Creedmoors all the way out to 1,000y.
Their 75gr and 87gr V-MAX work very well in my 1-10”twist 6BR.

 

[Kaldor]

@thump_rrr Now I understand your frustration, but honestly with the time and amount of bullets/primers/powder youve put thru this rifle? A barrel change might be your best bet. You can keep trying and blow thru another $400-500 or more in components, or you can just buy a new barrel and be done with it. Chances are its the barrel, and that barrel will never get any better.

I agree with @Nature Boy
The 185 Jugg and Varget is the key. Its a combo that just works. If you have a 10 twist 308 and it wont shoot this combo with the bullet set about 20 thou off the lands, take the barrel off and throw it away.

In my quest to get my 308 shooting, I went thru alot of bullets, powder and brass with my 308. Mine isnt anything crazy, Savage 10 action, Boyds stock, Criterion prefit, no brake or tuner. I've been down this road, and ultimately I did find a couple of loads that shot pretty well, but the rifle is very picky about those loads. And I did all this testing what primers were $20 a 1000, powder was cheap and plentiful, and you could get just about any bullet you wanted.

I messed about with testing 168s, 175s, 178, 180s, and finally knuckled under and tried the Juggs. Tried a bunch of powders too, 8208, H4895, Tac, 2520, CFE223, and just said screw it and got some Varget. Also did some playing with brass, Hornady, Winchester, LC Match, and finally bought some Peterson, and called it good. But holy crap was it an uphill struggle.
With the Hornady 178 BTHP, the best group I could eek out was about 3/4". 178 SMKs were about 1/2-5/8. 185 Juggs got me under a 1/2" on a consistent basis.
The recipe for me was Peterson brass, CCI 200, 185 Jugg, and Varget seated at about 20 thou off. Not too bad for the first bolt gun I built on the cheap myself.

 

[thump_rrr]

Do you only own 1 308? First thing I do is try and find the weak link. Another rifle changes everything but if it shoots great, you couldn't conclude the bullet was a bad design.

I have another Savage 10TR but it has the bottom bolt release which doesn’t work with most aftermarket chassis systems.

I have 2 M1A’s which are now prohibited rifles in Canada so they sit in the safe doing nothing.
AR-10’s are also prohibited in Canada.
My M1Garand shoots 168SMK’s very well which is why I don’t want to use them on this 308.
My 300RUM likes Accubond and Barnes TTSX so unless I want to buy another chassis and build another rifle I’m stuck.

Maybe I will try to find a really slow node around 2400-2550fps and play with seating depth to find something there.

 

[thump_rrr]

@thump_rrr Now I understand your frustration, but honestly with the time and amount of bullets/primers/powder youve put thru this rifle? A barrel change might be your best bet. You can keep trying and blow thru another $400-500 or more in components, or you can just buy a new barrel and be done with it. Chances are its the barrel, and that barrel will never get any better.

I agree with @Nature Boy
The 185 Jugg and Varget is the key. Its a combo that just works. If you have a 10 twist 308 and it wont shoot this combo with the bullet set about 20 thou off the lands, take the barrel off and throw it away.

In my quest to get my 308 shooting, I went thru alot of bullets, powder and brass with my 308. Mine isnt anything crazy, Savage 10 action, Boyds stock, Criterion prefit, no brake or tuner. I've been down this road, and ultimately I did find a couple of loads that shot pretty well, but the rifle is very picky about those loads. And I did all this testing what primers were $20 a 1000, powder was cheap and plentiful, and you could get just about any bullet you wanted.

I messed about with testing 168s, 175s, 178, 180s, and finally knuckled under and tried the Juggs. Tried a bunch of powders too, 8208, H4895, Tac, 2520, CFE223, and just said screw it and got some Varget. Also did some playing with brass, Hornady, Winchester, LC Match, and finally bought some Peterson, and called it good. But holy crap was it an uphill struggle.
With the Hornady 178 BTHP, the best group I could eek out was about 3/4". 178 SMKs were about 1/2-5/8. 185 Juggs got me under a 1/2" on a consistent basis.
The recipe for me was Peterson brass, CCI 200, 185 Jugg, and Varget seated at about 20 thou off. Not too bad for the first bolt gun I built on the cheap myself.

I bet that the barrel will shoot 1/2 moa without much effort with the SMK’s or the Bergers as the random rounds I threw together yesterday morning prove.
I have 3 other IBI Barrels that shoot extremely well.
The problem is that’s not what I have to work with right now.
I’m not lacking in powder or primers.
Only quality bullets.

 

[thump_rrr]

I've had good results with TAC as well, but it's a little more picky than IMR4064.

What kind of speeds were you seeing.
I have 1lb of TAC and 5-6lbs of IMR 8208XBR.

 

[thump_rrr]

I've had sort of the same frustration with my Savage 10TAC in .308, with factory 24" barrel. Trying to find The Load, with different bullets, and different powders was just a trail of woe and frustration. A few observations...

1) Enduron powders are not very good. I tried IMR4451, in lieu of the more reliable 4350's, and it was a disappointment. IMR (Hodgdon) has discontinued the Enduron series powders, and I'm not shedding any tears. I love IMR4895... but not in .308 with heavy bullets. It's great with 150's in both the .308 and .30-06, but I use IMR4064 for anything .30cal in 165grn and up. For you, that would include Varget, which is similar.

2) I have not had good luck with any other bullet in my Savage besides the 168 and 169grn SMK's (I have not moved to 175grn or heavier... yet.) I've tried the Hornady BTHP's, and VLD-M's, as well as the Nosler CC... and the accuracy was terrible. Further, the SMK beat everything else I've used, including Hornady, in 6.5CM (140-142grn.) Those other bullets may be capable of better accuracy than I'm getting, but at my current level of handloading... I can't find it. The SMK has always been the easy button.

My accuracy barometer has been the 168grn FGMM load... which uses the 168grn SMK. I stopped what I was doing, and worked up a short ladder with the 169grn SMK (different bullet, much longer than the 168grn SMK, but still responds very similarly...) and IMR4064, using a charge that QuickLoad told me would be equivalent to what FGMM produces, velocity-wise, and *Bingo!* there's my accuracy load. It was so incredibly simple-stupid.

As far as your current stash of bullets... like Condor suggests... I would start working on COL, using a tried and true powder, and see if that doesn't get you somewhere. If that doesn't work, then I would try a different powder, using the same methodology.

My acccuracy load for my M1A National Match is 42.8gr of IMR 4064 in LC 06 brass using a CCI #34 NATO primer over a 168 SMK.

Can’t find the 169’s in Canada yet.

 

[thump_rrr]

I would look at seating depth.

I will try to find a node lower down then work on seating depth.
I may try again with IMR 8208XBR.
It’s only primers bullets and powder.

 

[JFrank]

185 jugs shoot well also 165 /168 gr bthp or tipped with 44.0 -44.2 grains of Varget always shoot well, try seating test in ..005 increment from touch out to .030 jump and you should find a very good load.

 

[Blue68f100]

When was the last time you checked for copper fouling? Have a bore scope? Would be worth a look. I know the Hornady bullets copper foul at a faster rate than the Sierra's. The Hornady seam to have a softer jacket too.

 

[W.E.G.]

Is it just that this bullet doesn’t shoot well?
Maybe it can be made to shoot better with a different seating depth or powder?

Any suggestions would be appreciated since I have 1600 of them swapping bullets right now would be the last resort.

Very well could be the new lot of bullets.

Try a different bullet.

A gun that WAS shooting well, and which suddenly starts shooting not-so-well when fed a new lot of bullets, does not take an engineer to figure out what probably happened.

Sell the bullets that aren't working well for you.
Always somebody wants to buy bullets if the price is right.
Its not like you married the wrong woman or something.
Easily to solve at very minimal loss.