I am getting frustrated...
- Thread starter Afy
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enkindler
Member
You don't say what kind your equipment is but from my limited experience with others in your situation I would suggest you drop your power charge size. If you are shooting a rifle try about 1.5 as many grains as your caliber, e.g. around 80 grains in a 54 cal rifle. See if that works then work your way up.
This is assuming your projectiles are the correct size and you aren't pulling or flinching which can cause a sever loss in accuracy in a BP gun if the lock time is slower then what you are use to.
This is assuming your projectiles are the correct size and you aren't pulling or flinching which can cause a sever loss in accuracy in a BP gun if the lock time is slower then what you are use to.
Duncaninfrance
Member
Consistency!
With a BP handgun the watchword should be CONSISTENCY I think.
The biggest problem I have found is that the .457 Round Balls I have been buying (Speer swaged) are not all the same weight or diameter. I get better results casting my own. The other factor is that what enkindler says is very true. Lighter loads are more accurate than heavy ones. You won't get as much kick, smoke or flame but you WILL get constant results.
So - Specticale or Results.............which one do you want?
With a BP handgun the watchword should be CONSISTENCY I think.
The biggest problem I have found is that the .457 Round Balls I have been buying (Speer swaged) are not all the same weight or diameter. I get better results casting my own. The other factor is that what enkindler says is very true. Lighter loads are more accurate than heavy ones. You won't get as much kick, smoke or flame but you WILL get constant results.
So - Specticale or Results.............which one do you want?
One factor that sometimes isn't taken into consideration is that ignition is slower in a cap & ball revolver, and the powder burns slower. Combine that with a long, 7 1/2 to 8 inch barrel, and it becomes clear that careful holding of the sights (which are crude at best) and follow-through after the trigger is pulled is critical.
I have used charges as light as 15 grains of 3Fg + wads under the ball for indoor gallery shooting at 50 feet. Be sure the ball is firmly seated and the powder slightly compressed. If there is an air space between the ball and powder you can rupture the chamber wall.
It was well said by some champions in my club that if one learned to shoot black powder handguns well, anything else would be easy.
I have used charges as light as 15 grains of 3Fg + wads under the ball for indoor gallery shooting at 50 feet. Be sure the ball is firmly seated and the powder slightly compressed. If there is an air space between the ball and powder you can rupture the chamber wall.
It was well said by some champions in my club that if one learned to shoot black powder handguns well, anything else would be easy.
I would have to agree with the satement that if you can shoot BP well, you can shoot anything well.
I can pretty much shoot anything but BP well, and cant figure out how to do BP.... pointers would be well appreciated. In the mean time tomorrow I am dropping the range to 10 meters to begin figuring out the sights closer... and will be shoting very light loads of about 12 grains to eliminate the recoil factor.
Will up the dosage if the balls arent reaching the target...tough
I can pretty much shoot anything but BP well, and cant figure out how to do BP.... pointers would be well appreciated. In the mean time tomorrow I am dropping the range to 10 meters to begin figuring out the sights closer... and will be shoting very light loads of about 12 grains to eliminate the recoil factor.
Will up the dosage if the balls arent reaching the target...tough
One thing, on most C & B revolvers - but especially the 1851 Navies and 1860 Armies the front sight are too low so they tend to shoot high. Ignore this, and pay attention to your groups. Point of aim to pont of impact can be changed later.
On those light charges. you may have to use wads or a filler on top of the powder, or you won't be able to seat the ball far enough to slightly compress the powder. Any air space between the powder and ball can rupture a chamber wall.
On those light charges. you may have to use wads or a filler on top of the powder, or you won't be able to seat the ball far enough to slightly compress the powder. Any air space between the powder and ball can rupture a chamber wall.
sjohns
Member
One major problem that is exagerrated when comparing modern autos and SA revolvers has to do with these factors:
1. That curved grip puts stress on your wrist at a different angle.
2. NORMALLY you use your shooting hand thumb to cock that weapon.
A. This means that your grip changes EVERY time. Even if it is just slight, it does change. This will have an effect downrange.
3. Modern autos have a grip that is more straight up and down.
A. Plus they just happen to shoot one round after the other without having to change the grip.
So it should be no surprise nor mystery that you would shoot differently with these two different weapon types.
You can:
Cock the hammer with your non shooting hand.
Use a little Firm Grip on the wood.
Or simply stay aware of finger placement on the grip and trigger. Do the same thing every time for more consistency.
That will help bring the group in a little better.
Breathe Relax Aim Slack Squeeze (BRASS)
(Works much better with a rifle.)
1. That curved grip puts stress on your wrist at a different angle.
2. NORMALLY you use your shooting hand thumb to cock that weapon.
A. This means that your grip changes EVERY time. Even if it is just slight, it does change. This will have an effect downrange.
3. Modern autos have a grip that is more straight up and down.
A. Plus they just happen to shoot one round after the other without having to change the grip.
So it should be no surprise nor mystery that you would shoot differently with these two different weapon types.
You can:
Cock the hammer with your non shooting hand.
Use a little Firm Grip on the wood.
Or simply stay aware of finger placement on the grip and trigger. Do the same thing every time for more consistency.
That will help bring the group in a little better.
Breathe Relax Aim Slack Squeeze (BRASS)
(Works much better with a rifle.)
DaveP (UK)
Member
Well I only took up shooting after the handgun ban, so I don't have any experience with more modern handguns to draw on. However I have found it quite instructive to load five chambers, cap all six, spin the cylinder and start to shoot.
When the "empty" comes under the hammer you find out a lot about what you are doing
Give it a try!
How I got that way with a gun that has never scared me with its recoil is beyond me! Still working on it.
When the "empty" comes under the hammer you find out a lot about what you are doing
Give it a try!How I got that way with a gun that has never scared me with its recoil is beyond me! Still working on it.
I have done that with cartridge revolvers, but never with cap & ball ones. You have a neat idea. Do be sure you cap the empty chamber or the hammer will batter the nipple.
Also, if you feel that the recoil of a .44 is getting too you, consider one of the .36 caliber models.
Also, if you feel that the recoil of a .44 is getting too you, consider one of the .36 caliber models.
Steve499
Member
One of three percussion revolvers I own has enough backtravel in the trigger after it breaks to make the gun move before the hammer has dropped. It's inherent accuracy was difficult to assess until I taped a leather shim to the trigger guard as a temporary trigger stop. If it was the first and only BP revolver I had tried I might have thought black powder was different somehow, because I sure wasn't able to shoot it as well as my other pistols. Since we don't generally dry fire these things you may be having something similar happen.
The most accurate handgun I own is a Pietta .44 Remington. It will outshoot my S&W model 14 .38 special target revolver with match ammo, a real surprise but a very pleasant one!
You might try putting a thick piece of leather in the hammer cut to cushion the hammer fall, or remove the nipples and try some dry firing to see if your sights are bouncing all over AFTER the trigger breaks.
Steve
The most accurate handgun I own is a Pietta .44 Remington. It will outshoot my S&W model 14 .38 special target revolver with match ammo, a real surprise but a very pleasant one!
You might try putting a thick piece of leather in the hammer cut to cushion the hammer fall, or remove the nipples and try some dry firing to see if your sights are bouncing all over AFTER the trigger breaks.
Steve
AzShooter1
Member
20 grains with a fiber durocoat wad with wax between the ball and powder will group into 1 1/2 at 25 yards. I just put a new front sight on my 1858 Pietta and am axious to re sight in.
I've tried everything from 15 grains to 30. But the 20 works best.
I've tried everything from 15 grains to 30. But the 20 works best.
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Steve499
Member
I shoot 32 grains of Swiss 3F, a lube pill and a .451 cast ball, capped with Remington #10s. I think it's more a factor of the gun than the load, however. The revolver was one of the 'patina' finished ones, and was perfectly timed when it arrived.
These pictures were posted on old threads, both six shots at 25 yards. All my targets don't look like them but it's my fault, not the gun's
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35900&d=1140534334
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=49595&d=1166636273
Steve
These pictures were posted on old threads, both six shots at 25 yards. All my targets don't look like them but it's my fault, not the gun's
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35900&d=1140534334
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=49595&d=1166636273
Steve
Beagle-zebub
Member
Steve499--there are many people that'll tell you that the accuracy ceiling of the Remington 1858 is 25 grains. Different people have different results, but I'd suspect that you'll get a tighter grouping with something like 23 grains. (You'll save some bread in the long-run, too.)
Now, if you have already tested those load levels, or you accidentally typed "32" when you meant "23," then pay me no mind.
Now, if you have already tested those load levels, or you accidentally typed "32" when you meant "23," then pay me no mind.
Doc Rizzi
Member
Black Powder Consistancy
Every gun seems to favor its own load and ball size. When you seat the ball does it shave off a hair sized bit of lead? I am wondering if your seal is tight in the chamber. I am finding that with respect to black powder and round ball that tight is good. My son and I went to the range today and put about 50 round balls through a Navy .36. I was using 20 grains of fff. It felt like a .22. I don't know what range you are shooting at, but I suggest starting with your target about 10 yards away and moving it back as you see where your groups are forming. If you are starting at 25 yards you may not be able to track your groups. The longer you shoot also changes the character of your groups due to the influence of the fouling build up. The advice I have seen the others offer is very on. Reducing the variables of what effects where the ball lands on the paper is always my main goal at the range. We can measure accurately, seat properly and still have variables that are messing with where the ball is going. There was a man about 2 stations down from us today and my son noticed that he had white powder all over his station and his clothing. I walked down and asked him how he was doing. He told me that he was having trouble with his loads and wanted to know how much corn starch he should put on top of the powder to get a good bullet seating.....I mentioned to him that he might consider corn meal instead if he felt that he needed something more to get a good seat. I did manage to contain my laughter until I got back and told my son what he was doing. He looked like the pillsbury dough boy. Keep messing with it Afy. Let us know how it's going.
Every gun seems to favor its own load and ball size. When you seat the ball does it shave off a hair sized bit of lead? I am wondering if your seal is tight in the chamber. I am finding that with respect to black powder and round ball that tight is good. My son and I went to the range today and put about 50 round balls through a Navy .36. I was using 20 grains of fff. It felt like a .22. I don't know what range you are shooting at, but I suggest starting with your target about 10 yards away and moving it back as you see where your groups are forming. If you are starting at 25 yards you may not be able to track your groups. The longer you shoot also changes the character of your groups due to the influence of the fouling build up. The advice I have seen the others offer is very on. Reducing the variables of what effects where the ball lands on the paper is always my main goal at the range. We can measure accurately, seat properly and still have variables that are messing with where the ball is going. There was a man about 2 stations down from us today and my son noticed that he had white powder all over his station and his clothing. I walked down and asked him how he was doing. He told me that he was having trouble with his loads and wanted to know how much corn starch he should put on top of the powder to get a good bullet seating.....I mentioned to him that he might consider corn meal instead if he felt that he needed something more to get a good seat. I did manage to contain my laughter until I got back and told my son what he was doing. He looked like the pillsbury dough boy. Keep messing with it Afy. Let us know how it's going.
sundance44s
Member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2006
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- 1,473
Try this ..
I`d shoot that pistol from a bench rest first ...that way you`ll know where to lay blame ...I thought one of my Pietta Remmies was shooting to the left untill i benched it ....it was me .
I`d shoot that pistol from a bench rest first ...that way you`ll know where to lay blame ...I thought one of my Pietta Remmies was shooting to the left untill i benched it ....it was me .
sjohns
Member
That should work!
DaveP's suggestion is a good one too.
DaveP's suggestion is a good one too.
Mad Turner
Member
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2006
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getting frustrated
Hi Guys, all of you writing lovely stuff and we all gaining something from it. For myself shooting comes in order of importance. Most important is to load properly so you dont blow yourself up. Keep calm. Next is to be happy you are doing what you're doing. Keep calm. Next is to shoot at the target. Keep calm. Next shoot at the target as if you mean to hit it. Keep calm. Knock off the rough edges of what you are doing and refine your aim. Keep calm. Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. If anyone needs a lot of perfect practice, I do.
Mad and dumb.
Hi Guys, all of you writing lovely stuff and we all gaining something from it. For myself shooting comes in order of importance. Most important is to load properly so you dont blow yourself up. Keep calm. Next is to be happy you are doing what you're doing. Keep calm. Next is to shoot at the target. Keep calm. Next shoot at the target as if you mean to hit it. Keep calm. Knock off the rough edges of what you are doing and refine your aim. Keep calm. Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. If anyone needs a lot of perfect practice, I do.
Mad and dumb.
Figured out what the issue was... I was flinching when I pull the trigger. 
Dont know where I started doing that... so am going back to the basics i.e. 22 LR to overcome this.
Have noticed this even with rifles... I am really upset with myself right now.
Dont know where I started doing that... so am going back to the basics i.e. 22 LR to overcome this.
Have noticed this even with rifles... I am really upset with myself right now.
Hearing protection is often a big part of it. I have that problem because I can't use plugs, and muffs aren't always enough. Sometimes fatigue from heavy recoiling guns can cause it. That always gets to me after shooting them for a while and that's when I go back to the .22 to find my focus again.
I find that shooting at something in the dirt or snow (on a windy day so the smoke gets pushed aside) gives me the immediate feedback that a paper target doesn't give, so your mind and eyes can adjust for each shot. Shooting at paper gets easier after that.
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