I am having a hard time trying to decide on a caliber for a defensive handgun

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I would agree with a comment on page 2 about not getting a 1911, to start, as it does demand "knowledge".. Where, as also mentioned, a Sig, P220, or a P229 Carry, both DA/SA hammered 45's are very forgiving, reliable, easy to learn, very accurate out of the box, and VERY easy to field strip, disassemble, inspect, clean, and reassemble, making for a far- less steep learning-curve than that of the 1911 in all areas just mentioned.

There are some other fine DA/SA 45's of other makes as well. Basically, it should be the gun that feels the best, most natural, point to aim, in "your hand/s", along with what price (how much) you want to invest your dollars in for a long marriage between you and your gun along with the knowledge you will learn and, with such a forgiving type gun will, also, provide you with knowledge in a life long journey together.

Also, as mentioned, can't beat a 9mm for the same above reasons in Sigs, Beretta's, Glock, CZ's, and some other fine makes out there..


Luck, again,


LS
 
Carry the caliber that you can shoot well. It sounds lame but it is true. You are FAR better off with a 9mm that you can hit with than a 10mm that you can't.

Shoot it weak hand rapid fire and see how accurate you are. Most people don't ever do this but it is a mistake. It is a very real possibility that not only with you hand to defend yourself with only one hand but it may be the weak hand that ends up doing the shooting. There a million reasons this could be the case, you could be injured, carrying something you don't want to drop (baby, money, ect), you could be fending off someone with one arm, you could be using the arm to drive or hang on to something.

Whatever it is, you still should be able to shoot rapid fire with your weak hand. You should not only be able to hit with your weak hand but also control the gun so it doesn't slip out of your hand during recoil.

This is how I found that my beloved SIG 220 .45acp was not the best gun for me. I shoot it like a house afire in my right hand or using both hands but left hand rapid fire and I found I could hardly hold onto it. The first few rounds were find but after 3-4, the recoil started making the gun feel like it was slipping out of my grasp.

I switched to 9mm and I have never looked back. 9mm penetrats far better and there are some great loads for 9mm that really make it into a serious choice. I wouldn't want to be hit by a 9mm JHP +P any more than a .45acp. In fact, if I HAD to choose, I might choose to be hit by the .45acp only because it goes so much slower and is less likely to expand. I don't like the idea of being hit by either but I know a 9mm will tear you up. I did some tests and I was impressed with 9mm. I feel it is a better caliber than .45acp for a bunch of reasons.

1. It is cheaper so you can practice twice as much with it and get twice as good.
2. It has less recoil so you can shoot it faster and more accuractly. Put more lead into the target faster.
3. It has a larger choice of loads.
4. The guns chambered for 9mm often hold several more cartridges than .45acp. More shots are only a good thing. If you have to reload in a gunfight, you are probably going to die. If you don't need the extra rounds, at least they were there just in case. It is better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them.
5. You can talior the loads to preform a wider range of tasks than the .45acp. For example, you can use FMJ +Ps if you need extra penetration or you can use JHP+P if you want your 9mms to expand for maximun soft tissuse damage. A .45acp doesn't have this luxury. Even FMJ .45acps won't penetrat much.
6. 9mm is better for beginners.
 
Previously, I championed a good double-action revolver for the sake of safety, but I did not elaborate upon my reasoning. While anyone who purchases a firearm for self-defense needs training with it, some designs seem more "user friendly" under the stress of a potential life-and-death situation. And I believe this applies to a good double-action revolver. Now, I do not wish to imply that a person can not learn to use a semi-auto well under the circumstances I am describing, but the DA revolver removes one less complication when a person is fighting an adrenaline rush among other factors. My conscience requires me to put forth this recommendation.

Incidentally, I once owned a Colt .45acp, but I realize this would not be the ideal choice for others. I truly believe that the semi-auto is the choice for a combat situation due to its greater magazine capacity and easy of rapid reload with spare clips. But I am speaking of a home defense situation here where I would hope these factors would not apply.


Timthinker
 
For the love of Pete stick with the 380 if you are good with it. The new thing now is bigger is better. The more bullets a gun has the better. Don't believe everthing you read on the internet. You don't know its origin. More people die from the shock of being shot then from the wound itself. If you can keep a person from going into shock after being shot, he has a good chance of making it unless he was hit in a vital organ. Once you shoot someone with your 380 the fight is over. When a person gets shot, his first thought will be am I going to die or not? That is when the shock factor will kick in. His next thought will be escape with whats left of his life. He may recover and come after you another day BUT not that day, that can happen if he gets shoot with anyother caliber and lives. I know someone is going to say well if he is on drugs then... There have been documented cases with shootings involving bad guys on drugs and being shoot with 45s. I am not saying by any means that there is not some good advice from people who know alot about the subject but it will be mixed with postings from those that have watched alot of Die Hard Movies. Lastly I would like to say NOTHING replaces knowing your gun well and good marksmanship. If that were not the case I would not waste my time with 9mm, 45, 357 and just get a 50cal gun.
 
If you have a local rental range then rent several different calibers/types and find the one you shoot best, regardless of caliber or action type (only hits count).
Tomac
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+1
 
If you are a total clutz, ignore this and hire a bodyguard.

The best response, is the trained response. I know from experience, the double action revolver trigger is one of the most difficult of trained responses to deliver accurately and accuracy must be good enough. I love revolvers, but my response is more reliable from the 1911.

Everyone I have helped to transition from the revolver to the 1911 gained much more accuracy and speed. To say the 1911 is difficult to learn is to admit to a lack of knowledge of it. And proper ingraining of training.

Training is the key. Embrace training like a beautiful lady! Pay close attention to it. Accuracy and reasonable speed are the end demands of self defense with the firearm. If you cannot deliver these demands from contact range to 25 yards with reasonable safety, you had better rethink your needs. Training helps you counter the the fear factor.

Also, if your emotions do rule in a crisis,you are in deep trouble. Let training rule the situation. Let the fear affect you in the aftermath.

Whether it is the firearm, motorcycle, the auto or any other more common tool, Fear defeats you. I prefer to take the desired action and later go "Woa! THAT was close!" Hold off fear, at an arms distance, until a quieter time arrives.

The is only one time emotion can be "helpful" and that is when the situation is truly hopeless, then perhaps rage came overcome the bad odds. But count on getting hurt badly, terminally even.

Jerry
 
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Although Jerry and I disagree agreeably over the merits of the revolver vs. semi-auto, we both strongly believe in good training. I would like to expand upon this idea of training to also include vigorous physical conditioning. Why? In a life-and-death senario, people experience the "adrenaline dump" brought on by sudden fear. In this situation, the body literally releases a large amount of adrenaline which can cause a person to experience tunnel vision and the "shakes" among other factors. One way to counter this effect is through physical training that prepares a person for it psychologically and physically.

Preparing for the "adrenaline dump" is not as bizzare as it may seem initially. Some unarmed fighting instructors have their students perform strenuos physical exercise before a sparring match to mimic the effects of the adrenaline factor. If the students can work through the adrenaline effect, then it improves their chances of dealing with it in a real fight. This is something that I think merits consideration.

In closing, I would like to stated that the presence of the "adrenaline dump" leads me to favor the revolver as more "user friendly" in the circumstances I have described. Does this mean I oppose the semi-auto. No, I owned one for years and felt quite comfortable with it. But my level of self-confidence and physical conditioning may not apply to others. It is for this reson that I adopt the position stated here. Whatever choice that you, the reader, make, please train with your weapon until you become proficient with it.


Timthinker
 
Timthinker; If you have truly mastered the DA trigger, you have been proper in your choice. I wish I could shoot my 4 inch S&W Model 19 as well as I can my 1911s.

But, then, would I miss the ease of reloading???? ;)


Jerry
 
I chose 9mm because of the relatively inexpensive ammo. I need the practice. And yes, there are some fine defensive rounds available, too.

(with my .22 pistol, I get even more practice now :) )
 
When you all say ".45", do you mean the real .45 that Wyatt Earp used, or that dinky little sawed off 20th Century version? :)

Shoot whatever you are comfortable with. All of the (common) handgun calibers are pretty wimpy - arguing about them is like my brother and I arguing over which one of us is better equipped to be a porn star.

If you hit what you aim at, then how quickly the perpetrator ceases action will depend on a lot of factors - probably the least of which is caliber. If you miss what you aim at, it doesn't matter what caliber you are shooting.

Mike
 
Well, all my hadguns happen to be .45 for a reason. The PT145 carried IWB works great for me. The PT1911 is a range gun mostly and the Llama stays at home for the Wife. Recoil? The 45 doesn't have much more recoil if any than most of the other calibers you listed worthy of self defence...namely the 357mag or 40cal. Actually, ever shot a 2" snubby in 357Mag? Talk about recoil and muzzle climb!
 
Don't believe everthing you read on the internet. You don't know its origin. More people die from the shock of being shot then from the wound itself.
Click to expand...
Along those lines could I ask you to cite a source for that information and what type of shock they're refering to.
 
I currently own a Bersa Thunder .380, which, even though I think is a good handgun, has a caliber that I think is just too small for serious defensive carry. Therefore, I have thinking about moving up calibers, with this tentative list in mind to consider: .38 Special, 9mm, .40, .357 Magnum, .45.

Part of my considerations have been about stopping power, part of my considerations have been about price (of both the round and the gun), and part of my considerations have been about capacity (how many rounds each gun can hold). As you can probably tell, I am all over the place with my choices.
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OK: Here's how I divide this problem for defensive carry, which was what you posted about.

.380, with ball ammo, will penetrate about 15" of Gello. With accurate shot placement, that works. HP's will NOT penetrate enough

Now, here's how I divide the problem: not caliber but BULLET weight.

100-140 grain bullets, in .38, .357, .40, or 45 are marginal for penetration, if HP's are used.

Heavier bullets in the .38/357, starting at about 145 grains to 180 grains, will penetrate to the FBI standard .40 load distance of 17.9" in gello, sometimes.

Now, here comes the fun part. Velocity can play a HUGE part in how bullets preform, and not always in the way you think. And, add to that, when you start chopping inches off your barrel, the .357 you just bought could be a 2"
Plus P, really.

The good news is generally, heavy bullets create resistance, and, loose less velocity in short barrels.
The real world tests of some of Buffalobores ammo is posted below. You can
see both the huge energy, and velocity lost, when going from a 4-6" barrel to a 340-360PD:
Item 19E/20—158gr. Speer Uni-core, (Gold Dot) hollow cavity, bullet @ 1,100fps from a 2.5 inch barrel. It is designed to mushroom, yet hold together and penetrate deeply—roughly 13 to 15 inches in human tissue.

S&W mod. 340PD 1-7/8 inch barrel—1,015 fps (361 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66 2-½-inch barrel—1,097 fps (422 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 65 3-inch barrel—1,172 fps (481 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun 4-inch barrel—1,232 fps (532 ft. lbs.)
Colt Python 6-inch barrel—1,198 fps (503 ft. lbs.)

WARNING—shooting this ammo out of revolvers weighing less than 16 OZ. produces tremendous felt recoil. We recommend our +P 38 SPL ammo for revolvers that weigh less than 16 OZ., if you are recoil sensitive.

Item 19F/20—140gr. Sierra JHC bullet (jacketed hollow cavity) @ 1,150 fps from a 2.5 inch barreled S&W mod. 66. Designed to mushroom and penetrate deeply—roughly 12 to 14 inches in human tissue.

S&W mod. 340PD 1-7/8 inch barrel—1,088 fps (368 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66 2.5 inch barrel—1,156 fps (415 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 65 3 inch barrel—1,246 fps (483 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun 4 inch barrel—1,321 fps (542 ft. lbs.)
Colt Python 6 inch barrel—1,286 fps (514 ft. lbs.

Item 19G/20—125gr. Speer Unicore (Gold Dot) bullet @ 1,225 fps from a 2.5 inch S&W mod. 66 barrel. Designed to mushroom violently, yet hold together and penetrate deeply—roughly 12 to 14 inches in human tissue.

S&W mod. 340PD 1-7/8 inch barrel— 1,109 fps (341 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66 2-½-inch barrels—1,225 fps (416 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 65 3-inch barrels— 1,322 fps (485 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun 4-inch barrel— 1,445 fps (579 ft. lbs.)
Colt Python 6-inch barrel— 1,388 fps (535 ft. lbs.)
Click to expand...
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#tactical357

A 3" barrel seems to be the best compromise, at least from the data above.

I've also found other tests at Brassfetcher.com where a Glock 26 averaged
1200 fps with 9mm ammo, and the same 125 grain Gold Dots used above. the 26 barrel is 3.48" long, and, the Glocks rifling helps boost velocity.

Now, let's add another layer to this mess:
the same bullet, at different velocities.

From Double Tap ammo, compare the .40 S&W 180 grain Gold Dot results with the 10mm results:

"DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70" 511 ft pds
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70" 473
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66" 413 ft lbs

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72" 567 ft lbs
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76" 560 ft lbs
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70" 528
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68" 484 ft lbs
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59" 490
Now, look at the 10MM, and his 45 Stuff:
DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty 768 ft lbs
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88" 749
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02" 718 ft lbs

165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82" 744 ft-lbs
G29 the 165gr GSHP went 15.0" / .84" The petals were folded further back on the bullet fired from the G20.
-Mike
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85" 707 ft lbs
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77” 729 ft lbs
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96" 676
Using the G29, the 180gr GDHP: 15.5" /.98"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40" 553 ft lbs
DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82" 617 ft lbs
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88" 562
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95" 521 ft lbs
Click to expand...

Here, I'll make it easier:
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68" 484 ft lbs
10mm
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96" 676

So, the same bullet, going 200 fps faster, penetrates only .5" deeper. However, it expands MUCH more, .68 vs .96".

Keep in mind that both these loads are short of the FBI loads 17.9" of penetration, what they wanted, in the .40 S&W. How did they get it?
They slowed the bullet down, sacrifice expansion for penetration. IIRC,
the FBI load is only going 980 fps.

So, how do you pick? First, you have to be able to conceal the gun.
Find something you are looking at, and find the biggest gun you can conceal, and go from there.

Next, 45 ACP REALLY needs a 4" barrel to get consistent bullet performance, and, consistent weapon reliability.

Then, find ammo you can afford to shoot, that out of the barrel length you are considering gives decent performance.

Your Bersa Thunder weighs only about 23 oz. At that weight, the only guns that really provide the same weight, and increase power are the Glock 26/27, at 20 oz. in 9mm and .40, and, the Glock 29/30, in 10MM and 45ACP.
The 3.78" barrel in the 29/30 gives about 4" barrel results in velocity.

CZ's RAmi weighs 25 oz, and, the Bersa MiniThunder weighs 27 oz, and is only $350 New. I almost bought a Bersa Thunder, but, the Glocks are lighter, parts are cheaper, and, with either a block, or the Wolf trigger safety, I'd be happy with either.

If you are considering an XD, try and figure out where you are going to put it. They are bigger, and heavier then the Glocks, with more features, safeties, etc.

Hope this helps.

S J.D.
 
9mm is certainly the cheapest of those listed to feed. If you intend on reloading, that isn't necessarily the case.

With the rising cost of ammo, I find myself shooting a whole lot more .22 and 9mm.

As far as platform: You may be able to find a CZ or Ruger or in that price range, used of course. I don't think you can go wrong with either.


Mike
 
"With all of this said, I am considering the .38 special, because it is cheap and I think that the round can compare with a 9mm for stopping power. Plus, the gun that I found for it is a very nice gun to handle, and I think I can be accurate with it. I think it will either be that or a Ruger autoloader in 9mm, but I worry that the 9mm even isn't much of a step up from the .380 (after all, the .380 is also known as (and basically is) the "9mm short"). When I make my purchase, I just want to make sure that I pick something that I can depend on, which is why I have all of the contradictory thoughts about all of these rounds. "
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I think you're way over analyzing the choice...

If you like .38 Spl, then that's the one to buy.

Just remember, your goal is to stop a fight or attack...that's all. You'll be within 5 feet of the assailant....a .38 will do fine.

So, buy the .38...carry it and don't look back.
 
Thank you to everyone who responded to my question. Your answers were appreciated. I believe someone asked me to post after I had decided and to let you know what the decision was. I have made a decision. After taking the suggestion to rent and shoot guns of some of the calibers I was considering, I bought a Ruger P95 in 9mm (over a Glock 30). Several of reasons included: it was NIB for $350 (OTD at $380), ammo is really cheap, it has 15+1 ammo capacity, it is small enough for CCW, and it included an extra magazine with it. So that is why I made my choice.

Is it a good one? I am not sure just yet. I have dry fired it at home, and the DA trigger pull is extremely heavy. Also, there is a small problem with the magazine not fitting fully into the grip. Both of those might need to be worked on--or it could just need breaking in too.
Despite those problems, it feels nice in the hand, and it seems like a well built gun, so I will be curious to see how it shoots. I may be going to the range as early as tomorrow, so I could know then.

Anyway, that was my choice, and while I don't know if I would have made the same choice if money wasn't an issue (the Glock 30 is an amazing gun), it's the gun I have now. I guess I will see how it works out. Thanks for all of your help.

Also, I will responding to select posts from the past two weeks or so that have been posted on here, so I still have more to say.
 
.45 ACP in a 1911 would be my recommendation. It worked well for the US armed forces for over 60 years.
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If money wasn't an issue, I'd say go straight to a quality 1911 and the .45acp. That's my personal choice for several very good reasons.
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my personal choice is the 45 acp in a 1911 commander 230 g ranger sxt 8+1 . you can get a rock island 1911 for around 350 brand new and they are a good gun .
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Several people suggested the 1911, and while I think it is a good gun, I would have to disagree for a few reasons. The most obvious one is price. Other than the Rock Island Arms 1911 (which I had seriously considered, but couldn't find anywhere around here, since none of the gun stores around here are any good) that was mentioned, most of the gun stores my area charge outrageous prices for any 1911s.

I know I said that I would spend a little more if I felt that I was getting the right gun, but I can't afford $800 for a 1911. It is simply out of my price range. Secondly, the Glock 30 holds more rounds (10+1), is smaller, and I shot really well with it. Additionally, with the 1911, you usually have to keep it "cocked and locked," as opposed to the Glock, where all you have to do is pull the trigger. With all of this in mind, I don't think the 1911 would have been a good choice in this situation.
 
If you have a local rental range then rent several different calibers/types and find the one you shoot best, regardless of caliber or action type (only hits count).
Tomac
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1st -- I would suggest going to a range & shooting the calibers in question so you know exactly what you're in for and have a clearer picture in your mind of what you're buying.
Click to expand...

While this turned out to be an expensive suggestion, it was a good one. As I mentioned, I did rent several guns, and it did change my opinion as to what gun I was going to buy (from the .38 special revolver to a semi auto).

By the way, the indoor rental range (there is only one range in the Pittsburgh area) out here sucks and is full of pricks, so that is why I was hesitant to go to an indoor range. I looked around a little bit though and found a much cheaper range with much better people a little farther away, so I was still able to go to an indoor range. As I mentioned, it changed my purchase decision.

Now, as I said, I rented a Glock 30 and a Ruger GP100, and also took along my Bersa for comparison. Shooting the Glock 30 was amazing. It is probably the best gun I have ever shot (which was a major surprise after my bad experience with shooting a Glock the first time), and I don't think I have ever been more accurate with a handgun. I thought it could just be a fluke, but I spoke with a firearms instructor who my grandfather is friends with, and he confirmed that the pistol really was that good--and also that he owned one himself, which he has shot in competition (local competition between gun clubs). Also, out of the three guns I shot (in four calibers), the .45 ACP kicked the hardest. I didn't have any trouble handling it.

As I mentioned, I also rented a Ruger GP100. I hated that gun, and shot awfully with it. Surprisingly, the .357 magnum didn't have much punch in it. The Glock honestly was harder to control. The .357 on the other hand, was easier to control, but I was less accurate with it. Why? I think because of the DA trigger I kept pulling it to the right. Anyway, the .357 was a disaster for me for that reason. My sister, by the way, who had trouble with the Glock, had no trouble with the .357 magnum in the Ruger, and even put up better groups than I did with the round. Embarrassing, I know.

I also tried out the .38 special in the Ruger, and did better with that round. The .38 special, by the way, at least out of a Ruger GP100, kicks less (hardly at all actually) than my .380 with a hot load. I was more accurate with the .38 special, but not nearly as accurate as with the .45 ACP. Anyway, with either round, I wasn't happy with the Ruger GP100 for whatever reason. I'm sure it is great for many people, but it is just not for me.
 
Don't pick a 1911 unless you are going to practice extensively. If you are looking for a home defense gun, you want something that is simple to use and intrinsically safer that a 1911. Chances are, you are going to be woken up from a deep sleep and you brain won't be fully functional. A 1911 is a pro's gun and design for someone with full control of his faculties. You have to disengage the safety and the trigger is relative light.

My suggestions would be a double action revolver, double action auto or something similar. In the case of a double action, there are no safeties to disengage, but the double action is heavy enough to resist an accidental discharge in the event you aren't thinking (half asleep) and put your finger on the trigger. A glock with a 8 pound NY trigger, a Kahr or most double action autos give the same effect.

Remember, you will almost certainly will not be ready, and probably not thinking clearly in the first few minutes when you wife/girlfriend wakes you in the middle of the night because she hears a noise. Pick you gun based on that criteria, not what is the ultimate 'shooter'.

I'd also seriously consider a weapon light. I have a SureFire on my G26. You get the bonus of being able to see, and blinding the other person.
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The gun I was looking for would be for concealed carry. Thank you anyway though.
 
All the above will get the job done . . . provided it fits your hand well, you shoot it well and it doesn't malfunction.

It's kind of a champagne headache isn't it!
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Yeah, I did kind of get a champagne headache with all of the choices out there.
 
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