I disagree with Jeff Cooper

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I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other; I tend not to use slings except for carrying a firearm.

HOWEVER, I think we must never be afraid to disagree with ANY "expert." I'm an admirer of Jeff Cooper, too, but I wouldn't hesitate to disagree with him if my experience and sense take me in that direction.

I like G. Gordon Liddy, but on occasion I hear him pontificating in an area where he has no expertise and just makes no sense. We have enough "mental robots" in today's society; we shooters tend to be some of the last great individualists on the planet.

Nobody's opinion is sacred to me, but I sure do try to disagree agreeably when I disagree with someone. I think we have a few too many "keyboard commandos" around the country who feel obligated to attack anyone who offers a differing view.

My .02 worth.
 
Mike,

Agreed that taking a sling is quite fast, but going to rice paddy prone is even faster most of the time. Or instead of going for speed, one can try to take the time to assume a good field shooting position. If the animal breaks into a run or is only visible for a second, then one would probably do an offhand shot instead of a formal standing position.
 
Yep, sift through it and see what works for you.

I wondered the same thing and tried it both ways and found that (for me) using a sling offhand only marginally helped if any but getting into rice paddy prone made a big difference and was quick to get into.
 
I grew up with the editorial "we", so Cooper's style is at worst amusing to me. I really don't notice it. Besides, the content is far more important.

Most of my hunting has been for deer. The country I've been in has mostly been brushy, with a lot of it being gently rolling. If you're not standing erect, you won't see anything. A lot of the time, the only available shot has been on a running buck. On a running buck, I've never used the sling at all. For a nice, volunteer critter that just stands and looks at me, I'll go to the hasty sling as I throw down on him.

As usual, it's circumstance. There just ain't no "one size fits all."

:), Art
 
"but going to rice paddy prone is even faster most of the time."

Disagree on the relative speed. Unless you're a competitive shooter used to bellying out and coming to shoulder for the rapid fire rounds, keeping your feet is going to be faster for most people.

Dropping to a kneeling position, or sitting position, would I think be faster and as solid, and you can be twining the sling on the way down.

It's also not hard at all to have the sling already twined around your arm wtih the gun at port arms position.



As for Cooper's mental faculties, I believe he's not senile, and is in fact about as sane and rational as he's ever been.....
 
Give him a 10 lb. bolt action military surplus rifle and see if he changes his mind after a string of 100 rounds! I bet he would.
 
wondered the same thing and tried it both ways and found that (for me) using a sling offhand only marginally helped if any but getting into rice paddy prone made a big difference and was quick to get into.
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I hunt in eastern central Georgia. Swamps and abandoned farms. Broomsage, volunteer pines and oak scrub in the abandoned fields. When you see animals from a standing position, going to a squat generally gets you a nice view of broomsage, and palmettos instead of the animal.

I've found the hasty sling helps.
 
Jeff is just plain wrong on this!

Maybe he's just too old to hold a rifle steady enough to make a hasty sling worthwhile for him. It sure works for me.

Keith
 
Adjust your sling so that it is a little shorter than it would normally be. You want it adjusted so that if you shoot from a standing offhand position, you can effortlessly put your left elbow (right handed shooter) inside the sling and by pulling to the left a tad, put pressure on the rifle.

This is a pretty steady hold, instantaneous to assume, and it "feels right." This isn't as good as any of the classic rifle positions, but for field use (for hunting) it's very quick and "good enough." And of course, the sling can still be used for simply carrying the rifle without any further adjustments.

I've always called this the "hasty sling", though perhaps that term refers to something else.

Keith
 
While I'm in the disagree column with Col. Cooper in this matter...I am confident that the Colonel had enough experience with his rifle as a much younger man to form his present opinion. I seriously doubt that his opinion is due to old age or any infirmities he may be experiencing as as result.


However, there is a possible explanation. The man might have practiced so much for so long that his offhand hold experiences no improvement with the use of the hasty sling.:what:

HOWEVER, I think we must never be afraid to disagree with ANY "expert."
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Depends. You might want to hesitate about disagreeing with your scuba, skydiving, or flight instructors...the penalties for being incorrect with your disagreement are quite stiff. Likewise, your neurosurgeon or even your electrician.
 
The hasty sling has helped me kill a number of antelope, even unsupported. I have a way of walking in the filed with my left arm through the sling, its also possible to go into a hasty sling from "African Carry" but it takes practice.
 
I have to ask, I dont read Coopers articles, but I always wondered, why he chose a bolt gun for his "scout style "rifle. Is there a cut and dried answer? Thanx-
 
While I do sometimes disagree with him, I am a fan. I admire the man a great deal. I've read and reread all his books save one "Another Country". I have The Sprit and the Soul autographed.

If anything... Cooper is a man out of his time. They don't make them like that anymore. Just appreciate him for who he is and what he has done for us.
 
Cooper didn't choose a bolt action. He only says it has to be under six pounds. Semi's are too heavy to make that weight.

Keith
 
The thing about Cooper is that his writings span all manner of guns, his hunting adventures and his opinions on a gazillion other things. I'd have to say that his batting average is real high. If I disagree with a dozen of his opinions, I'm still in accord with a thousand others. :)

Fatelvis, you're missing a lot of chuckles by not reading Cooper's stuff. A lot of his comments are absolutely hilarious. He has a dry wit in his pin-jabbing at hoplophobes and other idjits.

As for the Scout Rifle, the design parameters include a medium cartridge in a one-meter-long repeating rifle weighing no more than seven pounds when fully loaded and dressed out. The forward mount, low power scope is his solution for the most rapid target acquisition. Simplicity, reliability and ease of maintenance enter in to the equation. Thus the bolt action instead of a semi-auto.

This package is not at all intended as a combat rifle. A scout is a hunter; a hunter is a scout. The probable targets differ, is all. Regardless, neither wants to be seen during the mission.

Art
 
George, I'm also a fan. That's why I was truly surprised to say to myself "Hmmm, he's wrong on that point". Never thought I'd hear myself think that.

I'm still a fan. I doubt there's anyone I agree with on every point. Vive la difference...diversity...all that stuff. (Hmmm, if I found someone I agreed with on every point, I'd be tempted to think that person a clone.)

Daniel Flory: ''The only, and I mean only, case where one would use a sling unsupported would be shooting over high grass while alone and without a tree or stick anywhere to be found."

That's precisely the case in some hunting situations, such as I described in my opener, and Art and others described.

My point is, try it sometime. Offhand, unsupported, with a "hasty sling" is noticeably steadier than plain offhand.

And who said geometrically unsound? Not so. The sling gives you a 2nd vector of force resisting random motion in a 2nd plane. Your hand on the forearm resists vertical movement (and causes some). The force of the tight sling to the side dampens horizontal movement, and seems to me to dampen some vertical, as well.
 
Very interesting thread! When I saw the good Colonel's opinion on unsupported sling positions, I thought it was a misprint too. It goes against my own (comparatively limited, mind you) experience, where I've found that the "hasty sling" offers a measure of steadiness as opposed to shooting offhand without a sling. Maybe this is all in my mind however...

As far as the Scout concept goes, I've heard the good & bad about it (what did Gale McMillan call it--a pistol shooter's idea of what a rifle should be? Something like that, anyhow; guess he didn't buy the concept.) and was intrigued enough by the idea to purchase a Savage Scout. Very versatile rifle, no doubt about it, and is the closest thing I've ever seen to a true "one-size-fits-all" rifle. I respect Col. Cooper and enjoy his writing very much, but you're gonna be hard pressed to put me in the "Jeff Cooper is God" camp. He's a man who has opinions & is not afraid to express them, I'm interested in (and agree with most of) his opinions but am not about to treat them as Holy Scripture.

shoot straight
 
I learned a few years ago to carry my rifle muzzle down on my left shoulder.
When I shoulder the rifle (a Scout) the sling is wrapped around my arm and everything is tight.
It does make a difference, but only if the sling is so tight that you almost have to wedge yourself into the gun.
It also helps me with controlling my AK during rapid firing.
I brace the sling around my arm and hang on and the sling does help keep the gun from jumping as far away during recoil.

The Colonel does have alot of useful knowledge, much of it from his experience.
I value that knowledge, but I also value my own experience.
Mine tells me that the sling can help.
Offhand is about as unstable of a shooting position as you can get. I was taught at an early age that even a dead tree, a sapling, a tall enough stump, anything is better than plain offhand. Perhaps the idea was to dissuade shooters from shooting offhand at all unless they absolutely had to. That would be good advice.
Bottom line: Shoot your rifle, figure out what works for you and do it that way.
 
Perhaps the idea was to dissuade shooters from shooting offhand at all unless they absolutely had to.
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I think you are very close to the truth about offhand rifle shooting.:D


On every gun board I visit, everyone brags about how their new hunting rifle shoots from a benchrest and how it shoots sub-moa groups. I always ask, how does it shoot from a standing or sitting position that might actually be used in a hunting situation:neener:

I would say that the majority of hunters go to the range, shoot a dozen or so shots off the bench and then call it good for hunting season. A paper plate target may be childs play to hit from a bench rest with just about any rifle, but becomes a much greater challenge when it has to be shot from a standing position. People do not like to practice offhand because it takes a long time and thousands of shots to get good at it and strengthen the proper muscles and give them the memory to be able to hold steady from the position. It also looks bad when they can only hit a pie plate 3 or 4 times out of ten at 100 yards from the position- its kind of a personal checkup on their shooting skills- kind of facing themselves in a mirror in a way. Its much easier to shoot pretty and tight groups and feel good about yourself when you leave the range.

I also notice this shooting highpower rifle where you cannot use a sling for standing. Alot of the marksmen could be shooting sharpshooter or expert classification if they worked on the standing position, but its just not fun to practice. I have a similar but opposite problem- I love to shoot from a standing position and am very good at it because I practice it 10x as much as any other position, but I generally suck at the sitting position, because its uncomfortable for me to get into and have done poorly on it in the past therefore I don't practice it anywhere near enough.:uhoh:
 
I have shot offhand with both a hasty sling and without. I don't find there to be much difference. Since I started shooting highpower last year my offhand shooting has improved tremendously! (both with and without the coat, mitt, etc.) We are all capable of much better offhand shooting than most think possible with practice. (as long as you are practicing proper technique!)

I think Cooper's comment comes from a highly accomplished rifleman. Until I reach his level of expertise I don't feel comfortable passing judgment on this comment.

I am a big fan of the scout rifle. I built a pseudo scout on a #5 Enfield and it works well for me. It is my favorite hunting rifle and I feel is near perfect for hunting here in PA. (see it at www.303british.com "Saving A Burnt Out Jungle Carbine") I had considered the purchase of a Styer Scout earlier this year but I just couldn't justify the price. I'd love to run a GPR course with it at Gunsite!
 
OK folks, since I've just registered and this is my second post, let me throw out a few details that I base my comments on:

-I've shot smallbore rifle (3 position - Olympic style) for thirty years
-I currently coach at the college level
-I've shot highpower off and on
-I recognize that the above are all "games"
-I recognize that many fundamentals are best learned/taught through these games
-I've taken Practical Rifle (and pistol) under Jeff Cooper at Whittington
-I've also trained with others (eg. Louis Awerbuck)
-I've read most of Jeff Cooper's writings
-I know how to use a sling (Olympic, 1907, Ching, hasty)
-I have an open mind and look at things objectively
-I have corresponded and dined with Cooper, but I don't "worship" him
-I have and love a Steyr Scout, but also play with pseudo scouts, M1s, etc.
-I tote a rifle in the woods whenever I can, which ain't often enough....

All of that said, I think the essence is that IF (big "if" here) you are doing things correctly, then a sling will not help in offhand/standing.

My reasons for saying this:

1. If you can get lower, get lower
2. If you can get closer, get closer (OK, both from Cooper)
3. Bone supported sling positions should be used whenever possible
4. If you MUST stand, then it's for one of these reasons:
a. It is a snap shot - no sling will help this
b. It is a moving shot - no sling will help this
c. It is an unrushed shot and you cannot find or get to a support

In c. above, a proper (again, a big leap) standing position will yield a better shot than trying to use a sling. Use of a sling as many have described will result in an increase in muscle tension - BAD for shooting stability. You must be as relaxed as possible for maximum accuracy.

Having said all of this, some have stated specific cases where a sling may actually stabilize. One such case being during rapid fire, which from standing by definition will not be accurate and has no real world use that I can think of (even in the military - covering fire of that type does not have precision as it's main goal). While it _may_ help if you are shooting rapid fire at drink cans at the bottom of a berm (and maybe not), while fun, this accomplishes nothing. I will submit that it won't help you train for either a real snap shot or a deliberate standing shot, both of which have real world applications. I'm sure that it's great fun, though. Nothing wrong with fun, it's just not important to Cooper, to whom rifle work is very, very serious.

As a personal comment, I have noticed a "dampening" effect when standing with a sling used around my back and left arm (bastardized combo of team sling and hasty sling). I do intend to test this some time to see if it really helps. I expect that for deliberate standing fire, it will not help, but for a standing "pray and spray" approach, it will help get back on target faster and perhaps tighten things up. I just can't see where that latter buys you anything from a practical perspective. I will, however, evaluate it objectively and report if I learn anything new from it.

Keep the perspective of the statement in mind here. As many of you know, often when Cooper speaks/writes, he does not fill in all of the details. If it doesn't matter to what he's commenting on, then he leaves it out, expecting the objective, thinking reader to be able to discern what is germane and what isn't. He tends not to comment much on what is not germane. Thus you may see no comments whatsoever on areas that he can't see as productive. I think that some of this is going on with the current subject.

All of this is of course MHO, but with the notation of some experience as stated above. I hope that no one takes anything as criticism, merely my view of the issue. Pardon the length of my contribution. This is a subject that I care about a great deal, and will continue to study.

Also, I really love shooting standing!
 
Hey, welcome to THR, Atlas! Glad to have you here. You brought out some good points.

I commonly bring up the "no one size fits all" thing, because I truly believe that. For instance, I've always had bad/weak/arthritic shoulders. I find that the hasty sling helps me hold a rifle more steady in the offhand position--but that's just me, and might well not matter to others...

:), Art
 
I think it may depend on the rifle as well.
With my Scout, the sling tends to help.
With my Mosin-Nagants it almost seems detrimental. They already have great balance, so they pretty much stay where you point them until fatigue starts to set in.
That is another point: You should shoot as soon as you can without hurrying. Get the sights or crosshairs where they need to be and shoot.
The more you screw around, the more you wobble.
 
Art,

Thanks for the welcome.

Hey - if it works for you (not just you _think_ that it works for you), that's great - use it and go for it!

While we all know that believing in a solution is a necessary condition for something to work, it's not a sufficient condition for success. It also must be based on some objective measure (ie actually work/improve). It sounds like in your case it's the offset of an arthritic condition that is the actual part. That, along with confidence and a positive outlook, hopefully will get you where you are trying to go, so to speak.
 
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