I do not understand this, rogue judge?

[lilguy]

A illinois judge just ruled that an illegal alien can carry a gun without a FOiD card if he is otherwise law abiding. I need help with this one. I have needed my FOID for over 50 years to do anything with firearms in my state. Now a judge just tossed that in the trash for this guy.

Republicans say FOID should be void if illegal immigrants can possess guns

(The Center Square) – Illinois House Republicans are both condemning and praising a recent federal judge ruling about illegal immigrants being able to carry firearms for protection.

www.thecentersquare.com

 

[Laphroaig]

Jeesh, that's one of the craziest stories I've ever seen.

Hopefully that will lead to the same rights for actual tax paying citizens.

 

[patmccoy]

A illinois judge just ruled

Sure would be nice if you posted the ruling, or a link to it, so we could read it to see exactly what the judge wrote in the ruling (words make a difference).

 

[wayneinFL]

United States v. CARBAJAL-FLORES, Dist. Court, ND Illinois 2024 - Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

 

[lilguy]

Thanks Wayne

 

[wayneinFL]

We need State ID's with photos to board a plane but illegals do not. I get the feeling that this country will be like Haiti on some places.

There is a Little Haiti neighborhood in Dade County. That's not the issue in this case. Neither is flying on a plane. This case isn't about controlling the flow of population into this country or assimilating culturally. This isn't about immigrants getting some kind of rights that we don't have.

This about whether you have a right to own a firearm in this country. According to this judge in Illinois, you do, regardless of immigration status.

The next case might be about FOID cards, though. Maybe you still have a right to own a firearm after your FOID card expires. I don't know that there has been a ruling since Bruen.

 

[HB]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe non citizens can purchase guns on a 4473.

I’m not sure what the process looks like. But I am nearly certain if you are here legally you can buy a gun. I imagine a lot of “illegal aliens” have some type of status where they are technically here legally if they were processed and released by CBP or ICE.

I am not up to date on IL laws. Carry a gun and buy a gun a very different.

For what it’s worth I have had Burmese neighbors that hunt and fish hard!!

 

[wayneinFL]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe non citizens can purchase guns on a 4473.

I’m not sure what the process looks like. But I am nearly certain if you are here legally you can buy a gun. I imagine a lot of “illegal aliens” have some type of status where they are technically here legally if they were processed and released by CBP or ICE.

I am not up to date on IL laws. Carry a gun and buy a gun a very different.

For what it’s worth I have had Burmese neighbors that hunt and fish hard!!

My understanding is people on immigrant visas can buy firearms in the state in which they reside. People on non-immigrant visas can only buy guns under a few exceptions, below, such as hunting.

Of course, if they were on a work or tourist visa that ran out, they would be illegal aliens. And if the standard the Illinois judge were applied throughout the country, these people wouldn't have to get rid of their firearms after the visa ran out.


18UCS922(2)(y)Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant Visas.—
(1)Definitions.—In this subsection—
(A)
the term “alien” has the same meaning as in section 101(a)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(3)); and
(B)
the term “nonimmigrant visa” has the same meaning as in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)).
(2)Exceptions.—Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and (s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that alien is—
(A)
admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;
(B)an official representative of a foreign government who is—
(i)
accredited to the United States Government or the Government’s mission to an international organization having its headquarters in the United States; or
(ii)
en route to or from another country to which that alien is accredited;
(C)
an official of a foreign government or a distinguished foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of State; or
(D)
a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.

 

[dogtown tom]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe non citizens can purchase guns on a 4473.

Sure they can. I transfer to noncitizens every week.
As long as they are in the US legally, they can buy a firearm or ammunition.
If they are in the US on a "non immigrant" visa (temporary worker, student, travel) then they must also possess a state hunting license.

I’m not sure what the process looks like. But I am nearly certain if you are here legally you can buy a gun. I imagine a lot of “illegal aliens” have some type of status where they are technically here legally if they were processed and released by CBP or ICE.

If they don't have an actual visa, no gun for them. Processed and released does not mean they hold a visa.

 

[dogtown tom]

My understanding is people on immigrant visas can buy firearms in the state in which they reside.

Nope. An "immigrant visa" is issued to a foreign national (ie a Permanent Resident or "Green Card" holder) who intends to live and work permanently in the United States. In regards to firearms they have the same rights as a citizen. Meaning they can cross state lines to buy a rifle or shotgun just like you.

People on non-immigrant visas can only buy guns under a few exceptions, below, such as hunting.

While federal law prohibits a person on a non immigrant visa from possessing or buying firearms, an exemption is holding a hunting license. They don't actually have to go hunting.

Its sad, but a non citizen in Texas has better firearm rights than a US Citizen in California.

 

[HB]

Sure they can. I transfer to noncitizens every week.
As long as they are in the US legally, they can buy a firearm or ammunition.
If they are in the US on a "non immigrant" visa (temporary worker, student, travel) then they must also possess a state hunting license.



If they don't have an actual visa, no gun for them. Processed and released does not mean they hold a visa.

Out of curiosity, does the NICS system verify that status? Like are they assigned a number like I would have a social security number? Admittedly I have never read that portion of a 4473 very closely.

 

[jdc1244]

There’s nothing in the ruling concerning possessing – or not possessing – a FOID card; the ruling addresses solely the constitutionality of Federal law prohibiting undocumented immigrants from possessing firearms.

Certain politicians are clearly using the ruling in a bad faith effort to attack the FOID card requirement.

And there’s no evidence of a ‘rogue judge’ given the decision is based on the historical tradition test as established in Bruen.

 

[LocoGringo]

Reading the judge's quotes in the article, they absolutely SCREAM that her ruling is a legal setup for making sweeping changes to either immigration law or second amendment law or both. It makes me queasy reading her terrible interpretation and application of US law to an illegal immigrant with a criminal background, violent or not.

Be careful ladies and gentlemen...we're being set up.

Edited for misspelling.

 

[rust collector]

I am encouraged by the court's following precedent and rulings on similar situations. This court had previously denied motions to dismiss, but upon a request for reconsideration took notice of other recent rulings and applied the Bruen criteria. It would have been simple to reiterate prior rulings, but the court acknowledged and incorporated other analyses made in the interim to reach a conclusion that is consistent with Bruen and other courts in similar circumstances.

This happened on a motion to dismiss federal charges, and has nothing to do with state law. The defendant will likely face state prosecution, which is commonly applied as a backup if federal charges don't stick.

 

[wayneinFL]

The defendant was handed the gun while standing watch outside a business during a protest. He shot at a car that swerved toward other self-appointed watchmen. Then he tried to shoot at another car that just rolled past him.

United States v. CARBAJAL-FLORES, Dist. Court, ND Illinois 2022 - Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Since he was handed a gun, I doubt he has a FOID card or Illinois carry permit. And of course there's aggravated assault if they can make it stick.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The Illinois judge set the illegal immigrant up for a federal violation.

 

[rust collector]

The opinion was issued by the US District Court. The state could have prosecuted first, but were likely hoping the feds would convict on the USC 922 charge so state would not have to spend the resources to try and possibly incarcerate. So much for that strategy. Feds can appeal, or toss the ball to state prosecutors and see what they do.

 

[dogtown tom]

Out of curiosity, does the NICS system verify that status? Like are they assigned a number like I would have a social security number?

When the buyer fills out the 4473 he includes his AR#, USCIS#, or I94# and indicates citizenship as "Other Country" and name of that country.
The dealer calls/enters the 4473 info to NICS who checks with USCIS to verify. The majority of the time it results in a delay of a day or two.

 

[arcsound]

I'm reading these opinions, and trying to discern where folks stand, but frankly the responses are too nuanced for me. Seems we would be united that 1) any illegal alien should not be allowed to own, possess or look at a firearm, given the 2000+ NFA laws I, as a veteran Navy officer must abide by, and 2) I don't care if it is federal, state or both, I apply the Nancy Reagan mantra- just say "No!" to illegals. What are we debating here?! Frankly, I don't think folks with VISAs should be allowed to buy firearms, either. Simply put- American citizens, without felony or mental illness, only. Period. Full stop. How is this not the accepted and supported norm? I cannot think of any other nation that would allow me to buy a firearm, as a non-citizen. Hey, maybe I'm sheltered, but I've traveled overseas a fair amount, and I never visited a country where I could purchase a gun. I'm sure I'll hear about the Sri Lanka "loophole" now....

 

[JTHunter]

United States v. CARBAJAL-FLORES, Dist. Court, ND Illinois 2024 - Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Some of the people involved with this are hoping that it may give us a wedge against the FOID and possibly the CCPs as well.
More details here:

US v Carbajal-Flores - Undocumented immigrant in possession

Criminal charges filed in the Federal District of Northern Illinois in 2020 (docket) As a reminder, 18 USC 922 is the Gun Control Act of 1968. On March 8, the court dismissed the charge of possession of a firearm as unconstitutional as applied to the defendant. Order said:Defendant Heriberto Carb...

illinoiscarry.com

 

[wayneinFL]

I'm reading these opinions, and trying to discern where folks stand, but frankly the responses are too nuanced for me. Seems we would be united that 1) any illegal alien should not be allowed to own, possess or look at a firearm, given the 2000+ NFA laws I, as a veteran Navy officer must abide by, and 2) I don't care if it is federal, state or both, I apply the Nancy Reagan mantra- just say "No!" to illegals. What are we debating here?! Frankly, I don't think folks with VISAs should be allowed to buy firearms, either. Simply put- American citizens, without felony or mental illness, only. Period. Full stop. How is this not the accepted and supported norm? I cannot think of any other nation that would allow me to buy a firearm, as a non-citizen. Hey, maybe I'm sheltered, but I've traveled overseas a fair amount, and I never visited a country where I could purchase a gun. I'm sure I'll hear about the Sri Lanka "loophole" now....

I haven't seen this guy's age published anywhere, but he doesn't look any older than 30. He's been here for 22 years. I dont think he just decided to leave his family when he was 6 or 8 years old and swim across the Rio Grande to take our jobs. He had no choice in coming here as a kid and and he might not even know enough Spanish to go back.

What has he done differently that makes him less suited to possess a firearm than I have? I've done no more for this country than pay my taxes. I didn't take a citizenship test. I probably couldn't pass it, because I slept through American Government in high school 30 years ago. I just happened to be born here.

Owning a firearm is not a privilege to be earned by filling out paperwork and passing a citizenship test. It's supposed to be a right. I don't see where you argue that there's a government interest in infringing on that right based solely on immigration status. Is there a government interest in controlling immigration? Sure. But it's not like infringing on a 2A right is going to deter anybody.

 

[rust collector]

This thread is about a specific opinion. The title of the thread is ironic at best, because this court made a specific effort to follow the Bruen precedent. This is a trial court opinion that is not precedent and may very well be appealed, so righteous indignation for any reason is premature.

Sentiments that others should not be able to enjoy the freedoms that we have taken for granted over the years are not relevant.