CraigC
Sixgun Nut
IMHO, handling heavy recoil has little to do with physical stature. Technique is far more important. 99% of it is mental.
That's a matter of perspective.
I flame the .44 Special ....
- Thread starter WVGunman
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Dframe
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Absolutely correct. I'm 6'2" and about 220, but my late wife was 5'4" and about 115 and she could handle anything I own.
Mowgli Terry
Member
Based on your experience as an advanced handgun hunter what revolver would you recommend for water buffalo. Also, where would I plan a safari where a handgun can be used on dangerous game. What calibers are permissible. I'd leave my 44 Special at home.
35 Whelen
Member
Not likely. I don't get my load data from gun writers or magazines. Most of those old stories and articles were written by people who had no access to labs or pressure testing equipment. They were/are in the business of selling print, not doing due diligence product testing.
But if you want to load up your 44 special to 25,000 psi I think you should absolutely be able to do that.
The chamber pressure of Keith's heavy load (17.5 grs. of Hercules 2400 in a solid-head case) was determined well over 60 years ago. In fact he mentions the pressure specifically on page 282 in his book SIXGUNS, which was published in 1955. Somewhere in the same book I recall he mentioned sending "his" load to H.P. White for testing. I've fired the load some, but really see little need in that much power for most hunting needs. But it is definitely a ring-tailed-tooter! I think someone already mentioned Brian Pearces work with the.44 Special in Handloader #236. Therein he has three categories of loads, 15,500 psi and less, 22,000 psi and less, and 25,000 psi and less. Now surely you don't think he just guessed at those pressures, do you?
I don't a think anyone can speak with any authority on the .44 Special if they are not handloaders. What I find highly amusing is the .44 Magnum aficionados who poo-poo the .44 Special thinking it's far behind the power level of the .44 Magnum. Notice in the above photo the Keith load propelled a 260 gr. cast SWC a little over 1200 fps. Now check the ballistics of these .44 Magnum factory loads from Remington, Winchester, Federal, CCI, and Magtech . Amusing, isn't it? Every year untold .44 Magnum owners load their revolvers with one of these factory loads thinking they're heading off in the woods with the ability to take down man-eating beasts when in actuality they'd be just as well off with a .44 Special and the handload in question!
35W
CoalTrain49
Member
No, I think he did a lot of incremental destructive testing. You stop when it fails. Material labs use that method everyday. Not very scientific but it works. Keith was a writer (not a very good one) and he needed something to write about.
As I said before, you should absolutely be able to load your 44 special to 25,000 or even 30,000 psi if you want to. Heck, who knows, might be good to 36,000 (44 Mag pressure) in some revolvers.
But what's the point? You can always load a 44 mag down but it's hard to load a 44 spl up. Especially to 44 mag performance.
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35 Whelen
Member
No, I think he did a lot of incremental destructive testing. You stop when it fails. Material labs use that method everyday. Not very scientific but it works. Keith was a writer (not a very good one) and he needed something to write about.
As I said before, you should absolutely be able to load your 44 special to 25,000 or even 30,000 psi if you want to. Heck, who knows, might be good to 36,000 (44 Mag pressure) in some revolvers.
But what's the point? You can always load a 44 mag down but it's hard to load a 44 spl up. Especially to 44 mag performance.
You think Brian Pearce did a lot of incremental destructive testing??? I think in your haste to reply you didn't read my carefully. You probably "think" Elmer Keith did a lot of destructive testing which leads me to "think" you've not really read much of his writings. Were I you, and were truly interested in the subject, I'd find a copy of SIXGUNS and read it cover to cover paying special attention to chapters 17 & 18. You might learn something, or at least open your mind a little.
35W
Mowgli Terry
Member
Maybe, we are too easily entertained. The OP should have been a clue. Have we be trolled in the extreme?
35 Whelen
Member
I definitely think it was either a way garner attention or start a conversation, and it did both in addition to bringing out a couple of angry .44 Magnum owners.
35W
35W
I started handloading .44 Spl. ammo back in the 80s. I heard everybody saying what a great cartridge it was for handloading and read all of Keith's work with it. It was even better than everybody said. You can throw some pretty heavy bullets at moderate pressures that are easy on a revolver with the right powder. .44 Spl. has also been my daily carry choice for 30 years. IMO it's as good as the .45 ACP Mr. Keith really understood cartridges and ballistics.
Mowgli Terry
Member
How could 45 ACP be better than 44 Special when you are shooting the similar weight bullets at the same velocity? I think of these rounds using cast bullets. Back in the day it was possible to run a Bulldog at 800-900 fps with a 240gr. bullet. OK, I'm listening.
My personal pick is the 11.35mm Montenegrin Gasser rounds in the Gasser revolver. Anything less than this is a toy. It's a man's gun known to drop the Vulnavian Gaur bull with one round. 
My personal pick is the 11.35mm Montenegrin Gasser rounds in the Gasser revolver. Anything less than this is a toy.
It's a man's gun known to drop the Vulnavian Gaur bull with one round. A 1911 shooting 230 gr. bullets will hold up for MUCH longer than a Charter shooting 240 gr. bullets. Charters are ultra lightweight carry guns and I have carried shot and worked on them for 35 years now. 200 gr. loads are more than enough from a Charter. Carry it a lot - shoot it a little. They will wear out.
Mowgli Terry
Member
No doubt the longevity of the handguns is different. I though we were talking about the cartridges. I still say there is not that much difference performance wise. Of late I have been casting my own bullets for both calibers.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
It's not hard at all, the data has only been available for +80yrs. The point is what it always was, that the .44Spl fits into tidier packages than the .44Mag. I have a lovely Old Model Ruger that weighs a paltry 37oz. It's range of capability ranges from light loads all the way through the 1200fps Keith load. The .44Mag is a significant step up, both in sixgun size/weight and capability. I see very little overlap. A 250gr at 1200fps is not a .44Mag load. It is a heavy .44Spl load. A .44Mag load is 250fps faster. Or 1200fps with a bullet that is 100gr heavier. That's a big difference. Sure, you can load the .44Mag down but what's the point? I really never understood this idea t hat the .44Mag somehow obsoletes the .44Spl.
Mowgli Terry
Member
Two different cartridges: Look, to many of us who own both 44 Magnums and 44 Specials there is a difference. One point that does have horse power for me is what is within reason with a 44 Special. Top end would be the Skeeter loads and similar. Loaded heavier can be a highly effective round for a holster gun. That is, like my 624. From target loads to old time law enforcement level loads. The 44 Special is now over a hundred years old. For those who have never shot a 44 Special you do not know what you have missed. So what that the 44 Magnum has more horsepower. I could care less unless out shooting my SBH or Vaquero in 44 Magnum. The reason the 44 Special has not faded away is a history of extreme accuracy and good performance levels. The Special is what it is. I really enjoy shooting 44 Specials in my 44 Magnums. Try it, you may like it. On the down side, you have to accept the 240gr. SWC at 1000 fps will bounce off targets. Right?
CoalTrain49
Member
There is no published data that will allow a 44 spl to be loaded to the same performance level of a 44 mag using the same bullet. That statement is blatantly false. The 44 mag moves the same bullet faster. Hornady doesn't even recommend the use of the same powder for their 240 grain bullet. If you want to use Accurate powder they recommend #5 for the Spl and #9 for the Mag. The difference is the burn rate. #5 is a much faster powder designed for lower pressure cartridges like the 44 Spl. The differences are night and day just like the 38 and 357.
I don't own either a 44 Spl or a 44 Mag. I don't load for either but I load enough to know that powder and bullet manufacturers test pressure before they publish a load. If you want to load far beyond what they recommend that's fine, everyone has they're own comfort level. If you want 44 mag performance why don't you just buy a 44 mag? A few more ounces of weight isn't going to slow most people down and most would probably like the extra weight if they shoot 240 at 1300-1400 much.
Yes, that's a 44 mag load. At least it is in the manuals I have. But what do the powder and bullet manufacturers know? They just test loads everyday and build the components. You must have all of that same test equipment in your basement.
I'm not trying to degrade the 44 Spl as you seem to think. I've owned a few. The truth is not many people make them anymore because the 44 mag put the cartridge on the endangered species list.
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Mowgli Terry
Member
What do you think would happen if you loaded 44 Special to the same pressure as 44 Magnum? I think it would be neat if reloading comments were limited to those who handload. Possibly, 44 Special was factory loaded to modest levels now due to age of weak handguns. Basically, what we are talking about is 44 Special as a handloaded cartridge. This gives us a significantly better choice of bullets. Also, the option is loading, within reason, a higher level of performance. For me, I don't have to compare anything. For me, the Special is a more useful handgun that my Magnum YMMV. I'm speaking of going to the range and shooting fifty rounds at paper.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
We've done this dance before. Read your post again, you said "it's hard to load the .44Spl up". THAT is what is patently false. No one claimed the .44Spl can be loaded to TRUE .44Mag levels.
There is absolutely published data for handloading the .44Spl beyond SAAMI specs. It may not be in YOUR manuals and that may be YOUR requirement but the data is there, it's pressure tested and we know what guns it is safe in. Not only do we have Keith's and Skeeter's famous loads but a whole set of loading data from Brian Pearce. If it's printed in Handloader magazine and therefore added to LoadData.com, that is published data. I don't need to have pressure testing equipment, thank you very much, because I am not developing new loads. I'm using published loads. No one is flying blind here.
Shocking. It's always those who have never done it that seem to be the experts.
As I've already said, 1200fps is not a .44mag load, unless the bullet is 355gr. A 250gr at 1200fps is a heavy .44Spl load and there are plenty of guns for which it is applicable. A .44Mag load in that velocity range is going to be way under maximum pressure. So yeah, your manual may have 1000fps loads in it but that doesn't make them true .44Mag loads. The heaviest .44Spl loads are about 26,000psi, the .44Mag is 36,000psi. That's a significant difference.
I have a bunch of .44Mag sixguns but that's irrelevant. I also have a bunch of .44Spl's but they are different guns for different purposes. Not even all my .44Mag's are created equal. Some, such as the N-frames, are really just slightly stronger .44Spl's. Others, like my custom Bisley and Super Redhawk, are heavy duty hunting guns capable of 50,000psi loads. Different guns for different purposes. A svelte .44Spl may not be your thing but it is to a lot of others and has been for a lot of years. Here's an example, a custom Old Model Ruger .44Spl that is 37oz. Or about a half pound lighter than a comparable .44Mag. Below that, a trio of GP's that range from 34-38oz. What may be 10oz or more less than a Redhawk. Below that, if SAA's are your thing, they are definitely more svelte than any Ruger .44Mag. So tell me, why would I carry a much heavier .44Mag, capable of a 355gr at 1200fps, if all I need is a 250gr at 950-1200fps?
Again, ignorance is surely bliss. There have been more .44Spl's offered by various manufacturers in the last 10yrs than at any other time in history. Including Ruger, S&W, Colt, Uberti, Freedom Arms, Charter Arms, USFA and probably some I'm forgetting. So no, it is not on the endangered species list. It's only those who don't understand who think the .44Mag should obsolete the .44Spl and that is sad.
Mowgli Terry
Member
Craig covered it like an umbrella. Can you hear the fat lady singing in the back
CoalTrain49
Member
I don't think the 44 spl should be obsolete. Never said it should be. I don't get to decide anyway, the ammo mfg's, gun mfg's and buying public will do that. They've made some pretty good cartridges obsolete.
The truth is not many people are buying 44 spl's anymore. Ruger and S&W have a few but for the most part it's 44 mag. People just buy a 44 mag and shoot 44 spl's in those just like they do with 357 mags. Three of us were shooting a friends Anaconda awhile back and none of us really enjoyed shooting it with 44 mag factory ammo. I had a box of 44 spl from years ago and we shot that also. We all agreed that shooting 44 spl in that Anaconda was far more pleasant. Probably the reason there are so many mfg's making 44 spl ammo.
44 Mag is the new 44 Spl. Hard to argue your way around that. It's just a much more versatile cartridge if you reload.
I can hear the fat lady singing. Craig C hit it square on the head. I still remember when the .44 Magnum was introduced. S&W could not make them fast enough to meet the demand - EVERYBODY wanted to buy one but almost NO ONE could deal with that level of power and sold them as fast as they could. I like and have loaded for both cartridges for years but I honestly have almost no use for the .44 Magnum where I live. If I lived in bear country I would probably carry one.
CoalTrain49
Member
If you reload why don't you just find a 900 fps load for your 44 mag. Lots of people download the 44 mag. It isn't just for Grizzly bears, elephants and cape buffalo you know.
35 Whelen
Member
As usual, CraigC summed it up far more eloquently than I can, and pretty much ended the discussion, but I gotta get in my 5¢...
Here you go, published loads from what appears to be the '50's or '60's- Loads for the .44 Special- Ballistic Data Supplied by the H.P. White Laboratory, which exceed some of todays .44 Magnum factory loads.
I have never understood this mentality. It reminds me of the city-dudes here in Texas who drive Ford King Ranch F250 diesel 4x4's, yet never leave the pavement and never pull anything larger then a single axle, tilt bed trailer from Tractor Supply with which they haul bags of leaves to be composted or drag their golf cart to the course. Silly.
I started piddling with .44 Specials on game a few years ago. I've since found out that cast SWC's running 935 - 1000 fps just shoot through game, so what's the point of more power? If for some reason I decided my next bull elk should fall to a handgun, I'd just use the load pictured above.
It makes far, far more sense to me to "load up" on those rare occasions I might need more power than to lug around a clunky .44 Magnum....or drive an F250 4x4.
35W
Here you go, published loads from what appears to be the '50's or '60's- Loads for the .44 Special- Ballistic Data Supplied by the H.P. White Laboratory, which exceed some of todays .44 Magnum factory loads.
If you reload why don't you just find a 900 fps load for your 44 mag. Lots of people download the 44 mag. It isn't just for Grizzly bears, elephants and cape buffalo you know.
I have never understood this mentality. It reminds me of the city-dudes here in Texas who drive Ford King Ranch F250 diesel 4x4's, yet never leave the pavement and never pull anything larger then a single axle, tilt bed trailer from Tractor Supply with which they haul bags of leaves to be composted or drag their golf cart to the course. Silly.
I started piddling with .44 Specials on game a few years ago. I've since found out that cast SWC's running 935 - 1000 fps just shoot through game, so what's the point of more power? If for some reason I decided my next bull elk should fall to a handgun, I'd just use the load pictured above.
It makes far, far more sense to me to "load up" on those rare occasions I might need more power than to lug around a clunky .44 Magnum....or drive an F250 4x4.
35W
Mowgli Terry
Member
I wonder how many here have actually loaded for and shot a personally owned 44 Special Revolver?
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